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This is something I have been wondering for a long time...
Where are all the Winchester 1895 Russian contract rifles in 7.62x45R?
I mean why aren't they showing up more than they do? They made something like 300,000 of them for the Tsar's army, yet the are as rare as hens teeth.
They show up at crazy prices now, ranging from $2000 to $20,000 USD. As seen by the last sale of one at James D Julia Auction.
Are there crates somewhere in Russia or a former soviet satellite country?
It would make sense, unless they were melted down. Apparently at least one third of the Ross Rifles in the world were sent over to the USSR as well, and apparently were rechambered to 7.62x54r. I wonder what happened to those as well.
Interesting, I've never heard about the Ross rifles until now.
There are probably crates just like this...
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...10/44430-1.jpg
Maybe most were abused and destroyed/sporterized after ww1.
I have never seen a picture of them in use after ww1, which is strange.
The Russians arent ones to destroy or get rid of guns, they seem to pack them in grease and bury them in mines and such. Maybe there still out there.
There was one of those cases out here in RCMP hands with carbines marked to BCP...new in the crate, never to see outside hands. I saw it and have no idea what happened to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by pcvando
They probably went home with an officer.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Actually more likely they were destroyed to "not fall into the hands of criminals."
Because all drive by shootings are done with an 1894 Winchester in 30-30.
Now they are melting all those hi powers. Damn gov.
I'm very certain that's what will eventually happen. I saw them in the lockup and discussed it with an old friend running that lockup. He basicly told me that very thing would happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by pcvando
296,000 Winchester 95s were delivered to Imperial Russia, which I guess in the grand scheme of things isn't really a lot.
Some would have been chewed up in WW1,
then more in the Russian Civil War,
more again in the Finnish Civil War, (Finland had 1700 on hand after the Winter War, and disposed of the last remaining 503 in 1950)
the Soviets sold 9000 of them to the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War (most of the examples we see in private hands now have come from Spain),
And more again chewed up in WW2 being used by mlitia, partisans, or second line troops.
Damn. How long ago was this?Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
---------- Post added at 12:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 AM ----------
Thanks for the numbers, maybe there aren't many left at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by fernleaf
But why do you think the prices for them are so high? I guess supply and demand.
I'd have to guess a bit, but back about '98? Friend of mine had quit the army and gone into the AGs office working with the CFOs office...he handled FAC issue and firearms disposal at that time. We went upstairs in the RCMP building on Nanaimo St in Victoria and while there he let me paw through the seized stuff...bit of everything. He showed me the mythical case that I'd been told about 20 years previous and it was still as described. I picked up the same mint carbine everyone else had handled, the others were still unhandled since packing. He stated flatly that these would never se auction and were destined for the chipper, just exactly when was always the question...Quote:
Originally Posted by pcvando
They fit both in the collection of Winchester collectors, aswell as collectors of Soviet arms, aswell as for collectors of US produced military guns, as well as a collection of WWI guns, plus of course also for those who collect different mechanical systems of military arms. Therefore the demand is quite high and most would love to have one of these.
It's said there is still a huge stock of those somewhere in Ukraine (as with the early WWI Colt M1911 Russian contract pistols), but of course this is only hear-say and no idea if they are really there. And if they were there, with the current situation in this area, it is highly uncertain that they'll surface to the collector market.
The other question is:
How many were "held back" in the US after the revolution in Russia?
How many of these were subsequently diverted into the commercial market?
I have seen very few original Russian contract 95s here in Oz and none of the owners had any idea how or when they arrived.
The production of 7.62 x 54R ammo by all of the "majors" for over a decade post WW1 would indicate that there was a domestic demand in the US. A lot of this was from owners of Moisin Nagants, also "held-back' after October 1917, but probably also from more than a few "lever-gun" shooters.
Anyone have any pictures in contemporary books and newspapers of 95s in Russian (or any other) hands in WW1 or post?
There are WW2 vintage photos of Soviet troops with Federov 1916 model "assault" rifles on both the Finnish front and in Eastern Siberia, so why not images of the potentially more numerous Win 95 muskets?
---------- Post added at 07:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:15 PM ----------
Of course, there is now a BOOK that covers the subject:
Here.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...nchester-1.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5Muskets-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...xo2_1280-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...t_POW_ca-1.jpg (Finnish guard)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...sun5bfei-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...86684f78-1.jpg (this one dates 1941)
Just some quick research via Google turned up these pictures...
Excellent pics Promo. I've never seen those. Too bad the Winchester book didn't have them, it should.
Val Forgett Jr. of Navy Arms / Service Armament fame had the M1895 Muskets in his 1961 catalog and for a few years in his store in Ridgefield, NJ. They retailed at $34.95 each. (1961-64 dollars). Ammo, 7.62 X 54R, military issue, was $7.95 per hundred rounds.
We had a dealer in the Prairies about 30 years ago that used to show up with muskets and bayonets of all models through time. Many were about mint and cost accordingly. He died years back and that stopped. So, they used to appear...