Woodworm treatment and to repair or not ??

A new arrival and not sure what to do with the box as its had some termite attack (woodworm) all gone now smells like its been treated some time back, but some dust still in the holes etc. the worst bit is on the underneath, quite a bit eaten away, question is do I just treat and leave or remove and patch ? some cracks and splits to repair. Idea was to treat and repair cracks and make another box for general use etc (very basic to make), considering the origins and date its a rough box to start with would of thought it may of been finished to a higher standard.

More pics and what it is, in the link but for the purpose of this post its just a box but with expensive contents.

.22 Erma K98 Conversion kit

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...pgunhgok-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...vgjnw1e7-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...c4ttsj0a-1.jpg

Big Duke,
As a restorer of both arms, boats, and cars, I would definitely restore this box. It's the real thing, anything else is a reproduction. And the time to create another is too time consuming.
I will take a page out of old wooden boat restoration for this:
1) Don't try to carve out the termite area (assuming they are all dead).
2) Get a product called "Git Rot" from a boat store. It is a liquid that you can pour into the termite infested section. It will seek out any deteriorated/spongy wood areas. When it solidifies (usually over night), what remains of the wood has been stabilized.
3) Patch the holes with a wood filler (either one pre-made in a can from the hardware or paint store) or mix up some saw dust (looks like pine) and glue and press the mixture into the vacant areas. Sand lightly before it gets rock hard.
4) Once the filler has hardened, sand with fine paper, stain, and varnish (probably semi-gloss) to your liking, feathering the varnish edges into the old varnish.

Good luck.

Thanks Seaspriter,

The problem I have here is I don't want to de-value the box, I,m thinking more preserve than a complete overhaul, just thinking of the next owner, if faced with the option on which boxed kit does he go for, the overhauled one (like new) or the preserved one (minimal work)

Treatment is the first obvious stage, then glue and repair cracks etc. Just not keen on the filler for a big area, I,m thinking more on the lines of the type of repair back then, when this kit was probably getting the most use, a patch either in the joiners shop or by an Armourer ?

The box is two lengths of pine approx, 1 1/4" thick with the required areas milled out, the finish has never been varnished, the colour is obvious faded pine but I would say its had a treatment previous (recent as it has a certain chemical smell to it) other pics I,ve seen of similar boxes seem to be plain pine.

I know its probably a bit anal over just a box (or in the case two hinged planks with milled out areas) but most of us have seen some form of kit, that has retained most of its origins and also kit that has had the complete makeover......:yikes:

If it were mine and probably any Armourer of any nation of that era I'd just cut out the old wood and patch it using old hot animal glue. At least you have something to work to. Always cut back to good wood and then move forwards. No different than patching up a Bren or rifle butt to me. Always undercut/dovetail the patches and peg afterwards. That's the sure sign of an Armourers work. Like I often say. There's two sorts of people who will comment on your box in 70 years time. Those that say 'ugh, look at those patches' and those that say 'woweeeee, just look at those patches'.

But in my heart, I know that whatever you do, it'll be done properly!
Arte et Marte

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

The problem I have here is I don't want to de-value the box,.....

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To me it would be worth less in its current condition or just stabilized. Termite damage is big turn off to me. So I would just look for another one. I would be fine with it if it was patched correctly.

The box was de-valued when the termites got at it. As Peter said, some folks like patches. I don’t know anyone who likes termite damage.

Look at it another way chaps......... Just been round to my friend who has acquired an original 1962 MGB roadster. He is going to restore it. He COULD buy a new late shell and retro convert it back to 1962 spec or he could repair the not-too-bad shell he already has. Guess what he's doing? Yep he's going to repair the original shell - and I'm going to teach him another lost art, that of lead-loading. Just like the craftsmanship that BigDuke will hopefully be repeating next.

Remember the old, well worn, and patched to within an inch of its life SMLE SpikeDD Dave showed us earlier this year. The work of a craftsman. These are the craftsmen who STILL repair Chippendale furniture that way. Dovetailed, glued and pegged.

Big Duke,

You may not realize it, but those members of the museum community that are on this thread will spot it immediately -- this is a actually debate between Preservation and Restoration. Understand, you will never resolve the debate; it's a matter of judgment, choice, and utility.

The Preservation Option: This is the advice I gave you and the advice Capt. Laidler refers to in lead-loading the MG. Preservation keeps as much of the original as possible, including materials, finish, etc. The story of the artifact's evolution -- good and bad -- is preserved for posterity. This is a very good option if the artifact is in basically in its whole condition, with relatively little change or damage over the years, such as your pine box. The termite damage is small, isolated, and has only minor structural impact. You probably won't be using this every day.

The Restoration Option: This is the advice Capt. Laidler gave you in his first post. Restoration takes the artifact back to its original functional and structural condition, replacing parts and repairing damage in a manner that removes the story/evidence of the damage or changes, essentially making the artifact functionally new again. In the MG example, the removal of a rusted fender and replacement with a new one of original specifications is "restoration" -- making the vehicle totally functional as if it were new, but it is "not original." The numerous wood patches on Lee Enfield stocks are evidence of restoration. We also take this option with a rifle if there was so much damage that you've got to replace a large amount of parts just to make it functional again. (Brian Dick is doing this now with one of my Long Branch snipers -- it was a skeleton in poor condition, with significant parts missing and nearly worthless unless he totally rebuilt it. He is restoring it back to a specific period in time -- as it would look at a date in the past.)

There is an "in between" place between restoration and preservation, which uses old functional parts (or New Old Stock) to replace old worn parts -- making something a "mix-master." This is obviously what most of us do with our Enfields, as there are very few new parts being made for them today (such as new Criterion's barrel).

While you will never resolve the debate, it is actually a useful exercise, because it forces you to think through the options and the pros and cons of each. That's why a mentor of mine many years ago reflected: "Live with your antique [house, boat, gun, car, etc] and let it 'speak to you.' " -- meaning think the restoration-preservation dilemma carefully in your head, heart, and wallet. Think not just about the how things look at this moment in time, but what people 100 years from now will be thinking about what you do today. Will your grandchildren praise you or shake their heads in pity?

We are custodians of history when we purchase and repair old weapons. Don't act impetuously (that's Bubba's way). Because, once you make the decision, you become "pathway dependent," and reversing the course is extremely arduous.

Thanks for all the replies, Seaspriter thanks again reading your post #7, It is a catch 22

Vincent If there was plenty of them about I would of bought I nicer example, its just a lot of the kits I know of are never complete with a box and its the first one I have seen for sale here, so I've one to *repair or copy from.

Peter I wish it was an MG, as all panels are available even section panels so a bottom quarter of a rear wing section could be grafted on the original panel ( they were available many years ago ?)

*With some spare time today had a good look at were to start but to be honest it wasn't as good as I thought it was, the pic I show of the main area that rotted is only small but the hidden parts (Underneath) you can't see stretch from the corner along the edge to about 12" x 3" there are also other bits that are spongy too, so approx 35% or more needs replacing, plus part of the lid.

The main problem area at the bottom of the box is also deep, to remove would also remove parts of the milled out sections, would probably be half of the thickness.

So before I start I,m making a new box at least I have a pattern to copy from then if I choose the repair option something to work to, but I think when I start I will end up with a bench full of sawdust and two hinges attached to the lid.

Preserving may be the way to go here (for the time being) until the new box is done.

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

It is a catch 22

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Yes, there's an old Yankee saying my grandmother used to state: "When you come to that fork in the road, you can take the right fork or the left fork; but either way, you'll wish you took the other."

If you like woodworking, make a new top and bottom -- it will be satisfying and not too difficult.

But you might first try the Git-Rot approach. In old wooden boat preservation we'd drill a few small holes where the surface wood is okay but it's spongy, indicating rot underneath. Inject the Git Rot into the holes over the course of a couple of hours, until the wood no longer absorbs the fluid. The Git Rot will harden over night. Then fill the holes. This is technique is comparable to Capt. Laidler's "lead loading" an MG fender -- truly an art not seen very often today; think of Git-Rot is to wood as leading is to metalwork -- it fills in voids and adds some structural integrity (but not a lot).

I had a look at the Git Rot on youtube, seems a good product have used something similar many years ago to stabilise an old beam in a Cottage I lived in, A friend of mine who is a panel beater/paint sprayer is quite proficient in the Lead Loading art of filing, its used a lot more often than folk realise but only in specialist repairs, doubt you would see any lead in the big insurance repairers workshops.

Making a new box sounds like a good idea. Would you use pine or some of that famous English oak?

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

and I'm going to teach him another lost art, that of lead-loading.

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Oh boy. I haven’t heard anyone talk about lead-loading for a very long time. I bet most people have never heard of it.

I bet you can braze too. That’s another art.

I learned the secret of lead-loading after a few dismal failures and the practice had ceased at the BMC factory a Cowley due to health and safety stuff. Then a friend told an old retired worker that I was having problems working the lead under the blowlamp with the hardwood blocks while it was in its transitional putty state. He phoned me and told me that the only wood to use was hickory which didn't contaminate the solder/lead while it was in its putty state. He was dead right. Got some blocks of hickory and it worked a treat. Mind you, by then I had enough failed attempts.......... But the practice was good!

Incidentally, it was this health and safety nonsense that that ended lead loading on the MGB and GT and Triumph GT6 and TR6 bodies. Look at the later MGB and GT bodies and you'll see the panel join inboard of the rear lights and the rear panel. This used to be lead loaded and smoothed. Likewise, between the GT 'C' post and the roof. This seam was lead loaded too but after the practice of leading was stopped as a H&S issue, they just stuck a nondescript and cheap GT badge across the open seam

Hickory! I will file that bit of info away for future use. Thank you.

Does lead loading work with dissimilar metals, like say aluminum and steel?

I have been using the TIG welder to braze with silicon bronze. The heat is very controllable and isolated. It’s great for thin metal that might warp using traditional brazing with a torch. You can also braze dissimilar metals together with it, though I mainly use it on Sterling SMGs.

You won't get it to adhere to Aluminium (of any sort?)

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Originally Posted by Vincent

Making a new box sounds like a good idea. Would you use pine or some of that famous English oak?

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Will stick to the original material (Pine) have got the ideal piece but its part of a shelf at present.

Another method of treating woodworm which hasn't been mentioned is to freeze it for a prolonged period at below -5 centigrade. Obviously there are limitations on the size of the item that can be treated and size of the freezer available. I have heard "Experts" state a minimum time of 48hrs but I normally go for a much longer period of say 2 weeks at below -5 centigrade. I normally place the item in a plastic bag and remove as much air as possible before sealing the end with tape and then doing it again so that it is double wrapped in plastic. Then just stick it in the freezer and check that the freezer is below -5. It is important that the item is left in the freezer and not periodically removed to access other items. I usually instruct other, more conventional, users of the freezer in my household not to remove the item even for a brief period.
This method is especially useful if the item that you are treating is something that you don't wish to have a chemical treatment on it.

That's a bl---y good idea Flying10! Is that a fact? The 'doubt' as I see it is that wood is a good insulator and if the buggers are tucked up in there, they could survive for quite a while. -5degrees or not. In much the same way as we were taught to burrow down in a wood/thickett/brush hidey hole to survive the bitter winter while evading.

the local archival library uses the same methods on all new items for their collection.

not sure of the length of time or temperature they use though.

It's useful for things like children's toys for obvious reasons

Getting back to actual wood preserving treatments, most available in the U.K. seem to be water based now. I'm told by my 2 local retailers that you can't apply oil based paints to these. Is there a way round this?