Mle 1907/15 Mannlicher/Enbloc clip question.

Hi all,

I am looking forward to taking my M1907/15 to the range to test out but I have some questions about the Mannlicher clips it uses. I have three reproduction clips which I have tested and they work but my question is how did the French historically stack/load the clip with the ammo.

For example the British stack there chargers _-_-_, did the French just do one rim under the others like in a standard 8x50r/8x56r Mannlicher clip (how I did it for the first shoot) or did they have some other way of stacking it. The reason I ask is the reproductions do not have any sort of tab to let you know which way should be up (like how on a 8x50r Mannlicher clip, which can only be inserted one way anyways).

To me this doesn't make sense as you could insert the clip upside down easily unless there was some other way to know. Is this just a design flaw with the design or is it just something lacking on my repros. Also when I stack the rounds in the clip it doesn't look like the photos I have seen of surplus (where the surplus ones seem to all be pointed to the middle)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...uzsxkmf7-1.jpg

In the picture the three rounds without a clip are stacked the way they are inside the clip to show what I mean.

Also as a side note, I will be doing some accuracy testing with this ammo likely next Monday or Tuesday. Its 50rds of 8x50r Lebel, using 235grn pulled Balle 'N' surplus bullets (I bought the pulled bullets off someone, but I have no idea where they got them, maybe they pulled themselves).

These are forced upward as they fire...they'll sort themselves as you go. There'd be no way to grab the clip one side up or the other in action or in the dark. We over think this...

I think what he's worried about is the rim from the one below catching the rim from the upper preventing it from chambering. This should not be a problem as the rims should be held so they can't do this. If the repros are too loose I suppose it could. My originals are a little loose also. I didn't have any issues when I took it to the range.

I understand his worry but don't think there'll be a problem. Otherwise the whole system would have been flawed from the beginning. As you say, yours isn't a problem.

I understand these Mle 1917 clips are at the $100 price now (repros are $50)Attachment 66698

I believe this is the proper way to load this clip

Attachment 66708Attachment 66709Attachment 66710

I have a couple of these old ones too...neat to think that the 5 shot was the much upgraded, hi cap mag of the day...

I recently bought one of the reproduction 3-shot Berthier clips ('chargeurs'). In early testing, I am getting 'rim jams' in about 50% of my trials.

A few years back, I had a Berthier carbine (M-16). The 5-shot clips (originals) worked without a problem with the same Prvi ammo. I don't think these repro 3-shot clips are quite right.

From experience, I found Lee-Enfield chargers had to be loaded by 'over-lapping' the rims and using the charger 'one-directional' in stripping cartridges into the magazine. The Mosin-Nagant has an 'interrupter' to assist rimmed cartridge feed. I am sure original French made Berthier clips worked correctly from 'either end up'.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by butlersrangers

I don't think these repro 3-shot chargers are quite right.

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That's probably about the best assessment of them.

Attachment 66716Attachment 66717Attachment 66718Attachment 66719Attachment 66720

Always interesting to find a few clips or a few rounds in machine gun links, sometimes a gift from a friend or something at a gun show or rifle range.

Fourth pic, left hand clip, is that a clip of 30-03?

I have a Remington Mle 1907/15 that looks like it may never have been fired. I understand that the French refused to accept the rifles from Remington citing quality issues, and that Remington sold the rifles domestically. Does anyone have a clear idea of what the manufacturing problems were (bore dimensions? chamber dimensions?) and whether they would preclude me from eventually firing this rifle? It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has already ventured down this path. Many thanks!

Its not a major concern for me, it just occurred to me it wouldn't make sense the way they designed it unless it worked both ways.

I am just trying to get the right rim layout to avoid rimlock and use them the way they were originally intended. Also since surplus 8mm Lebel is next to non-existant (for shooting purposes, expecially on the original clips) as surplus, I want to learn the way they were historically used. From the photos provided above it looks like they used a '-_-' type set up, so I will give this a chance next range visit to see if it works.

Personally I love the Mannlicher clip design, I consider it significantly better than the stripper clip or charger. These rifles are neat because they were truly outdated when they were initially issued (though better than the rifle they replaced). That being said they are very high quality rifles, and I think the M16 upgrades improved the design significantly (changed it to 5rds with a closable hole to drop the Mannlicher clip).

Remember, these surfaced on the heels of all the single shot, bolt action types. French...Austrian...they were indeed the earliest assault rifles. The five shot would be a big thing...

Oh I am well aware. I mean the adoption of a three shot rifle being obsolete (when everyone else was using 5rds), not the modification of it to 5rds.

The flaws with the rifle (Mle 1907/15), as I see it, are the big hole in the magazine for the mannlicher clip to fall out which would allow mud and dirt in (corrected on the M16 modifications), a bolt that required a screwdriver to remove from the action, and a 3rd capacity in comparison to most (all?) contemporary nations which had 5rds or more (again corrected on the M16 modifications). It is certainly better than a Lebel rifle, but worse than a Gewehr 98 or Gewehr 88 (its two most direct competitors).

IMHO - I think the French used a '_ _ _' or '_ _ _ _ _' cartridge rim set-up and proper positioning of dimples, curvature & bends of clip body, and tempering of steel, allowed cartridges to move without rims overlapping and jamming. I know I never had a problem with original 5-shot 'clips' and Prvi ammo.

p.s. The French had the most intimidating bayonet - "Rosalie" !

I believe only the Lebel was used as a sniper rifle. Also have seen photos of the Lebel used with the Viven-Bessieres grenade launcher. The Lebel was difficult to load but you could get eight cartridges in the tube, one in the lifter and another in the chamberAttachment 66742Attachment 66743

The correct (functional) manner to fill Berthier M90 Chargeurs is "--__--" with the central cartridge against the back of the chargeur, the other two with rims in front. This allows the cartridges to Lie in a "Triangle" shape ( correct for Packing and Loading, and how they sit in the Magazine well on the elevator. This makes the Chargeur "Goof -Proof" ( symmetrical, can be used either way.)
Placing the cartridges "rim to rim" makes them liable to fall out of the Chargeur, and also not to feed properly from the Magazine.

Doc AV
Aussie Manufacturer of NEW (2011, 2016) M1890 Chargeurs "AVB 2011 BMC"
info@avballistics.com.au

---------- Post added at 08:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 PM ----------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RCS

I believe only the Lebel was used as a sniper rifle. Also have seen photos of the Lebel used with the Viven-Bessieres grenade launcher. The Lebel was difficult to load but you could get eight cartridges in the tube, one in the lifter and another in the chamberAttachment 66742Attachment 66743

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But the Mle86D ammo was only packed in 8 round wrappers...8 rounds for the rifle, 24 (3x8) for refilling Mle1914 Hotchkiss MG strips. Until the 3 round and 5 round Berthier chargeurs came along, then they were packed in the Chargeurs ( 2x5s,4x3s.) Paper wrappers

And as mentioned in another (MAS36) Post, the soldier carried the Magazine Loaded with 8 rounds, the elevator up (cut-off on) and fed the rifle a shot at a time by hand ( from his Pouches) under Command ( so-called "Volley Fire")...Until the final rush...and then it was "Magazine fire" ...This soon ended with the new warfare of 1914. After the Volley fire and "command fire" was abandoned, then the soldiers loaded "10 rounds" for immediate combat. ( ie, Feu a' Volonte'== Fire at will).

Doc AV

I have some original five round clips (didn't know there were reproductions out there until now!) and have never paid much attention to how I loaded them. They've worked just fine. The alternating rim placement requirement wouldn't work at all with the five round arrangement anyway! Maybe staggered forward? BTW, I've never noticed any particular arrangement to .303 SAA in clips pulled from bandoliers that were in sealed cans either, and most of my L-Es don't seem to mind. Some are finicky, but they are finicky even if they are loaded with single rounds as well! Magazine feed lips need tweaking on those I reckon.

One of these days a few RSC Mle 1917 clips will be useful, if I can bring myself to sacrifice a Lebel to rebuild the semi-auto.