NZ issued No4/No5 info..

Morning all,

Over the last five years or so, a number of ex New Zealand issued firearms have gravitated toward my collection, currently an Enfield 1917 No1mk3* a 1964 Lithgow L1A1 and a 1959 L2A3 ... enough to make me consider adding the rest to complete the set.

I know I can go back in the other direction and look for NZ marked Sniders, Martini's etc, but I think for now I will concentrate on the Enfields.

So with this in mind, how common are NZ issued No4's today, anyone know how many were supplied .. and did NZ ever issue the No5 in any quantity??

mrclark: Don't forget about MLE's. Canada sold 15,000 to NZ in 1913.

Ridolpho

didn't NZ also have no2's and/or no8's?

I think the NZ No8's were sold off a few years back, I would love one of those, pure nostalgia, I and many others on here were taught how to shoot with those fine old .22 Enfileds. But have you seen the prices the No8's are fetching these days ... not spending that much on a .22 trainer, no way!

NZ certainly had a batch of No5 rifles that were all stored in racks at the big Ordnance Depot at Ngaruawahia as I recall. They weren't on general unit issue but as I recall, had dribbled into NZ from Korea and Malaya over the years - like a load of other kit of the period/era. No4';s and Stens were still issued throughout NZ but large stocks were being disposed of as the L1's were coming on stream. The No5's were being disposed of at the time and as I remember, my boss and Denny Phillips had one each and I got one for the technical collection we had at the big Ordnance Depot workshop we had there. The weapons in the racks were all in good condition unlike the rusted out junk that had been crated since it arrived in the war. Happy days there.......

Somebody posted this some years ago.


History of LE No4 with New Zealand Army

In order to understand New Zealand’s procurement of the Lee Enfield No 4 Rifle one must first try to understand the military and financial situation that existed within and between the allied armies at the end of the Second World War.

The New Zealand Army had begun the war using the SMLE No 1 Mk III / III* as the standard service rifle. For training and logistical support reasons it had decided not to convert to the newer LE No 4 during the war (NZ did adopt the No 4 Mk 1(T) sniper rifle in 1942). Although we were fighting in Europe this decision was heavily influenced by the fact that our nearest weapon producing neighbour, Australia, was producing the SMLE.

When the war ended New Zealand found itself, financially at least, on the good side of the ledger. We had been ‘loaned’ some major items of equipment through the Lend Lease program, such as our Sherman Tanks, but New Zealand had paid for most of our equipment. This had been done either by direct cash sales or by supplying food or products of equivalent value. It was also obvious that our food supplies would be saleable in Europe for some time after the war.

With the end of hostilities a New Zealand Army Ordnance Corps (NZAOC) Vehicle Park and Stores Depot was established at Assisi in Italy. This unit’s task was to administer the large volumes of stores and equipment being returned from 2 NZ Division units departing for home. Alongside this unit were staff from the New Zealand Government Stores Board who worked in conjunction with the representatives of the British Ministry of Supply. Their task was to action the NZ Government / Defence Department plan for New Zealand’s post war re-equipment program.
New Zealand was given the option of purchasing equipment that had been on loan to us, and in many cases, such as the Sherman Tanks, we declined. We had already purchased enough Valentine Tanks for our perceived post war needs. It was a similar case with the Thompson sub machine gun. We had purchased quite a number early in the war, but had decided on 9mm as the post war submachine gun calibre. While New Zealand was sorting and returning equipment many other countries were going through the same process, so stockpiles of surpluses were being established around Europe. Much of this equipment was then being offered at bargain basement rates to member nations, especially if they would take the equipment in lieu of cash. This situation enabled New Zealand to update or increase our holdings of much of our military equipment.

Quantities of LE No 4 rifles began to be received at Assisi in late 1945. These were made up of good condition used rifles from various manufactures and of differing marks. Later allocations were made from mostly new rifles of the Canadian Long Branch Mk 1* ‘wartime standard’. The exact number acquired by New Zealand is unknown but a suggested figure of 50,000 seems likely. The No 4 rifles began to arrive after the preparations for the occupation force in Japan had begun and so Jay-Force sailed with the venerable SMLE.

It was not until the Malayan ‘emergency’ and the introduction of Compulsory Military Training (CMT) in New Zealand in 1948 that the LE No 4 rifle came into wide spread use. Even then it never completely replaced the SMLE, which remained in service in cadet units and was the standard for ‘Ceremonial’ occasions. The LE No 4 rifle was the service standard by the time Kay Force deployed to the Korean War.

CMT took its toll on the ‘wartime standard’ No 4 Mk 1* rifles and by the early 1950’s parts, especially those used only on wartime production No 4’s became scarce. The recovery of used parts from condemned rifles became the norm.

When the phase in of the 7.62mm Self Loading Rifle L1A1 was announced in 1959 the Chief Armourer was instructed to maintain 36,500 operational No 4 rifles, winding down to 25,000 in 1964. When the final shipment of SLR’s arrived from Australia these 25,000 rifles were placed in war reserve (less the LE No 4 Mk 1 (T) sniper rifles, which remained in service until 1977). In 1970 New Zealand began to receive the M16A1 rifles it had ordered from the USA at which time the reserve rifles were re-inspected and those gauged not fully serviceable were destroyed. The New Zealand Government then began to distribute the remaining reserve No 4 rifles to Pacific Island nations under its Military Assistance Program (MAP). In the late 1970’s the remaining LE No 4 rifles were declared surplus by the Government Stores Board to be sold off to ‘Ex and Service Members’ for $25.00 each.

In 1988 there were still approximately 80 LE No 4 Mk 1* rifles in store and it was decided to use some of these to arm the ‘enemy’ party for the NZ Defence Force Exercise Golden Fleece. This marked the last use of the LE No 4 rifle by the New Zealand Army and all remaining rifles were issued to the Army Museum, Waiouru, in 1990.

M.S.(Joe) Evans
AC Wpns & Ammo
Army Museum
WAIOURU

Many, many thanks for your input all, that certainly answers the question!

Based on that amazingly detailed info I am going to focus on locating an NZ marked No4. With regard to the No5, I wonder if these rifles were ever marked with the "NZ" and rack number, if they weren't on general issue, must be very rare pieces indeed.

I have seen a No5 with NZ markings, NZ arms is very much the focus of my collection. The nz marked high point would be my No9 and with the upcoming replacement of the AUG I live in hope that I will be able to replace my civi AUG with a issue one-but I'm probably dreaming

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mrclark303

But have you seen the prices the No8's are fetching these days ... not spending that much on a .22 trainer, no way!

---

That's my thoughts regarding a straight pull L1A1, but if I ever get the bits to complete the .22 conversion kit then I,d need a L1A1 for it to go in, a vicious circle or catch 22 if there ever was one....... and does it stop there ?

I wouldn't snub the No 8 due to the price (my mistake in the past ) they are an excellent rifle, not only very accurate, collectable, cheap to run and also a good investment. ( a better investment if the statement in the link below is written in stone)

Lee-Enfield Rifle No.8 for the British Forces

Dont forget the P14s as well, I have a nice NZ marked one in my collection

Res
Your hopes of a NZ issued AUG are very slim to zero. The policy introduced by the last Labour (socialist) government is to destroy all surplus or redundant arms. Helen Clark was the Prime Minister then and is now 2IC of the UN !. Don't know what the latest government will do but I haven't seen a Police or Government surplus arms auction in NZ for years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by enfieldshooter

Res
Your hopes of a NZ issued AUG are very slim to zero. The policy introduced by the last Labour (socialist) government is to destroy all surplus or redundant arms. Helen Clark was the Prime Minister then and is now 2IC of the UN !. Don't know what the latest government will do but I haven't seen a Police or Government surplus arms auction in NZ for years.

---

I know,Im hoping that we can do what happened with the .22 trainers a few years back-even a handful on C cat would be nice but Im not holding my breath!


edit-spelling

Unfortunately chaps, with the ever tighter UN arms controls being implemented word wide (plus a healthy dose of Governmental paranoia) most of us are very unlikely to see ex military arms sold to the public ever again, even in a deactivated state.
Here in the UK, this has been the case for some years, its extremely unlikely that a single deactivated L85A2 will ever be made available for sale to the public, when it is eventually replaced.

Some deactivated L85A1's and L86A1's made it onto the market before the clamp down, some, but very few and they now command very high prices among collectors.

I dare say all the ex NZ AUG's will go into the melting pot, apart from perhaps a few small batches gifted to friendly nations or gifted to museums.

---------- Post added at 10:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 AM ----------

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bigduke6

That's my thoughts regarding a straight pull L1A1, but if I ever get the bits to complete the .22 conversion kit then I,d need a L1A1 for it to go in, a vicious circle or catch 22 if there ever was one....... and does it stop there ?

I wouldn't snub the No 8 due to the price (my mistake in the past ) they are an excellent rifle, not only very accurate, collectable, cheap to run and also a good investment. ( a better investment if the statement in the link below is written in stone)

---

I would love a No8, but the prices are just too high for me, that and it sits just outside of my core collection interest, the Minister of Finance just wouldn't authorise the procurement, so it remains on the "nice to have, but not funded" list, for now anyway!

Deact one for sale next week in Noo Zeeland

http://gunauction.co.nz/




39 - NZ ISSUE STEYR AUG RIFLE
A extremely rare NZ Army Issue Steyr AUG Bull Pup assault rifle. 21” 5.56mm cal blued barrel with flash hider and bayonet lug and marked with NZ prefix serial number. The gun is also marked NZ and broad arrow on the receiver which is fitted with original optic. Green polymer stock with folding foregrip and is marked with the Lithgow ADI logo and Made in Australia. Includes its original 30R magazine.....

thanks Big Ball Bag! that catalog had not made it to me-looks like ill have to update my address with them again. Ill probably throw a bid in on it but my toy fund may not be up to the task but I can only but try

Now that is a mouth watering sale, I would be the proverbial dog with two appendages if I could attend that one with plenty of folding money ... I wonder if I could re mortgage the house without my better half finding out ...

there is also a No9 in it that I got told today is in better condition than my current one,so tempting!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mrclark303

the Minister of Finance just wouldn't authorise the procurement, so it remains on the "nice to have, but not funded" list, for now anyway!

---

I,ve got to the point now of selling stuff so I can buy, got more than expected on a recent sale so could fund a few other items, plus no need to explain to the Finance Minister regarding figures etc.

Understand the "core collection" thats what I've narrowed mine down to, the old nice to have list went off in many tangents, more streamlined now and shorter.

For those interested in New Zealand arms here is a very good link. New Zealand Arms Register - Arms Register