Printable View
How unusual is this?
I bought the rifle this morning at the North Store. It has a ME of just over 1, TE just under 3. Everything else on it is correct. The Bolt color even matches. The stock has a 1/2" DAS, with a lot of dings, so many on the bottom side of the butt it looks stippled.
Not bad for $495.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NuJudge
I don't think the HRA bolt is "unusual" but to get a rifle as nice as yours sounds for $ 495.00 is unusual I would think. Wish I lived a bit closer to the South store. I would like to be able to pick out a rifle, but as of now, I am waiting on a "luck of the draw" H&R service grade. Congrats.
I have a 5,445,XXX SA that I got on a CMP auction last summer (dutch, with grenade sight mounted). All the metal looks new and the barrel measures new. This rifle has an HRA bolt, op-rod and complete HRA trigger group. The color matches.
It sounds like you got a Field Grade that is not a Correct Grade. How is the throat erosion? If it is 3 or less the metal would be a Service Grade. The rifle may have been down graded from Service to Field Grade because of the stock.
It appears the CMP swaps parts between SA & HRA Correct Grade rifles to make them into Servce or Field Grade rifles to keep up sales & maintain the value of the Correct Grades.
Are you suggesting that they swap parts out of "correct" rifles to make them mis-matched?
I kinda doubt that. The staff is small and they barely have time to process orders. A more likely explanation would be the Greeks taking apart a bunch of rifles and then mixing the pot before reassembly.
Actually Orest came out a few months ago on the old CSP and confirmed that they DID swap parts to downgrade a rifle. I don't really remember the rationale but I do remember him confirming that.
Dan
Wow.
That surprises me.
Just today, I was talking to a Gentleman who volunteered many days at CMP. This was when they accepted volunteers.
The CMP has been swapping parts on all correct rifles for years. He handled hundreds of rifles. But he got in trouble because too many rifles that he had handled went out all correct. That caused trouble for him down the road when someone who paid extra for a Collector grade was upset when they looked at an all correct standard grade.
Here is how it goes. The all correct “collector” grade rifles are the best. The wood is very good quality, the metal parts high amount of finish. They are really nice.
However, you also have this very large set of all correct rifles that are not in as good as shape. But some are close.
To keep the people who pay a $350 + premium happy, no all correct rifle of a lesser quality leaves as an all correct rifle.
If you notice, barrels are not replaced. Marked items in particular are swapped out: bolts, operating rods, trigger groups. Stocks are changed, HRA for SA, SA for HRA.
I mean if you look at your late model SA or HRA and can’t figure out that it has almost no finish wear, did not go through a rebuild program, and yet the parts are not all correct, well where do you think it most likely happened?
It is a business decision, and if you don't like it, buy a bunch of standard grades and try to swap enough parts around to get a couple of all correct rifles.
That could certainly explain why I have an SA with virtually no wear and an HRA bolt, Op-rod and trigger group........:dunno:Quote:
Originally Posted by slamfire1
Easy stuff to swap out fast, without tools of any kind required.
I am very sad to think that they have done that. :crying:
In the interest of equal time I contacted Orest and asked him point-blank. Here is the exchange:
************************
Good evening Orest.
I wanted to ask a delicate question and I thought it might be better asked here as opposed to publicly on the CMP forum.
It has been stated on another board that CMP has deliberately swaped parts around in otherwise "correct" rifles in order to downgrade them. IE correct manufacturer bolts, op-rods, trigger groups, have been swapped around (EG an HRA bolt and/or trigger group in an SA rifle) possibly in order to bolster the value of "collector-grade" rifles.
That can't possibly be true, can it?
His reply:
*******************
Dan,
Not only is that statement not true, it is utterly asinine. It is not worth any further comment - people can believe what they want, since they will anyway.
Orest
My response:
************************
Sir I forgot to ask you if I may quote your answer to my question. I would like to attempt to set the record straight but not without your permission.
His response:
*********************
Dan,
There is no 'setting the record straight'. This topic comes up at least twice each year. Feel free to quote me, but know that it will not stop anything. The only to way to end these threads is to ignore them and they go away.
Orest
What this means to me, and here we go again, is when someone makes the statement "I want to keep my Garand/Carbine/03 just as I received it because ..........".
In the course of 60+ years, whether just behind the front lines, in an Army, USMC, Navy, Coast Guard, ROTC armory, or a Reserve Unit, parts got swapped around all kind of ways.
They grabbed a part, installed it, if it went "Click - BOOM", it was the CORRECT part.
I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me ----- the ability to swap parts around on my weapons as I see fit. If I have an SA, I want to put SA parts on it. If I have an HRA, I put HRA parts on it.
As long as it fits and goes CLICK....
I thought all M1 collectors/dealers would change "Correct Grade" rifles into "Service Grade" rifles just to have more service grade rifles to sell.
LOL
The time will come when the world will know that Orest's utterances are worth less than Bernie Madoff's. :thdown:Quote:
Dan,
Not only is that statement not true, it is utterly asinine. It is not worth any further comment - people can believe what they want, since they will anyway.
Orest
My !(55 HRA appears correct except for the SA bolt. HEY!!!! DID YOU GET MY BOLT!!!! LOL Actually I am not sure about the stock being correct I think the stars and eagle are about 3/8" & the circle P has the serifs.
Of course this could not be the case for all but it sure makes sense in some instances.Quote:
Originally Posted by slamfire1
Remember when the Greeks were first coming out in 2003 and 2004. Service grade HRA's ($450 then) with original finish, -2 TE barrels and bolts were common (I got two). If I recall, rackers were $300.00 and frequently looked as good as the service grade metal in a rack stocks. I do remember people getting out of sorts that guys were getting rackers as nice as their Service Grades.
Didn't "Field Grade" get invented in 2005 to allow a level between Rack and Service? I'm sure this allowed the ability to equalize the quality.
I don't expect Orest to fess up about "correcting" or downgrading rifles. It would destroy the perception of purity and arbitrary nature of the grading system. However, logic dictates it has to happen on occasion.
When Orest says it is "Asinine... and not worth further comment" I think he does protest to much.
JR
Guys, I used to volunteer two days every quarter. A group of three of us would always go together; myself, "kontiki", and "rhino", from the old Jouster forum. I never saw CMP armorers doing what is described here. What did happen is that the three of us would be cleaning rifles together after test fire and doing final inspection. WE would sometimes change parts between rifles to make them a little more correct. We didn't swap bolts (headspace issues), but would swap Op Rods, stocks and many small parts. You can't believe how busy CMP armorers are just trying to get rifles out the door. They don't have time to play games, (but volunteers did lol). Example: If you have an old copy of the Spring 2004 GCA Journal, you will see an article we authored about one of our volunteer adventures. We found something like 20 HRA service grade rifles that shoud have been collector grade. They were missed because they had SA barrels. Rhino and I each bought one as a service grade, and they are described in the GCA Journal article. CMP armorers could care less about the grade; they call them like they see them.
My $02
Dave
Of course there was no chance the Greeks changed anything while they sat there for more than 30 years either. Wouldn't you agree?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotor