Indian reworked No. 5 from 1944?

I bought two No. 5 Carbines which I received today .. and one of them has really odd features which I've never seen before with a No. 5 - and I've had probably 10 of these already.

The receiver bears old, filed off markings. Above them is written "No. 5", below that "11/44" (?).

Also note the serial on the receiver which is really low (00049), and matching to the serial on the bolt. The receiver ring has only FR markings on the left side, plus Indian markings on the right side.

Could this be one of the first ever produced No. 5 rifles, which was later overhauled in an Indian arsenal?

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The very first production batch of No5's were made by Faz in early 1944 - officially March, IIRC. They are all serially numbered in the FE prefix block. I bought one recently as a renovation project & it is in fact electro pencilled 1/44 & the 1 has then been over engraved to read 2/44. The rifle still exhibits the early flash eliminator with the 'ears' straight rather than bent outwards at the top. Mine is FE 3XX.

Hope this helps.;)

ATB

I have a 4/44 serial number 524, i have posted it here before so if you go to my profile you should find some photos of it

A simple 44 - 75 certainly looks early and maybe pre 1/44 I'd venture to suggest.

Thanks for that Peter - yes, maybe it is - I couldn't make out the lower line of markings on the receiver side wall. Your eyes have obviously fared better with age than mine....

Promo, do you have a photo of the possible '11/44' marking?

Roger, as far as I remember it has the "straight" front sight hood. So it's one of the early rifles. The only thing I am still not sure, did the Indians add the serial to the receiver and to the bolt, or are these factory serial numbers? The one on the bolt is really deeply struck, but were the original serials rather faint, to allow scrubbing and to add new ones?

The stamped-in numbers were done during it's Indian FR. These are typical of their FR standards.

Were the factory serial numbers etched feintly in order that they might be easily linished out and......... Definately NO! They were engraved lightly because......... well....., because that's just how they did it at Fazakerley - on everything!

Hi Promo. Yes, I'd agree absolutely with Peter - even the font is typical, & No4's & No5's were re-numbered according to the system the Indians used on the RHS of the receiver ring. I don't know why there, but maybe because that's where the serial numbers are on SMLE's & LLE's. You can see that they also put their own markings on the RHS of the butt socket under the bolt handle........again perhaps because old habits die hard, & that's where the manufacturer's markings & so on are on SMLE's & earlier rifles.

I did some more pictures of these faint markings ... probably they answer what your question was? As said, to me it looks like 11/44, but I might be wrong.

Could it be 11/44 followed, closely by the serial number D875 which puts it into the bog-standard category!

It sure looks like 11/44 to me too! I wonder if the scratchy penciller had an off day & car crashed a 'D' of the serial prefix into the second 4 of the 44? I have just this afternoon been working on an A prefix 8/44 receiver. Could the serial possibly be D 875?

If it is 11/44 it would make it a first year of production rifle, but much too late to be a prototype.

This would be a great example of a 'lost or otherwise indistinguishable' number according to the EMER management bible. Unless there was supporting documentation from the holding unit WOCS or Accountable Stores registers we'd withhold this rifle back at workshops and apply for a new 'accounting' number for it. When it came through from ACA branch (and they were quite quick) the old number would be barred through and the new identifiable number would be engraved. The rifle and supporting paperwork would go back to the unit and the paperwork would be the authority for the RQMS to amend/correct his register.

Fazakerley did this on purpose during their lifetime just to keep Field and Base workshops and Regimental Quartermasters on their toes and the ACA in being!

That would make sense, thanks! And the serial on the bolt was scrubbed by the Indians, right?

Would a first-year rifle make a premium in terms of value? And the Indian rework, is that also a premium, or a loss in terms of value? Or directly, how much would such a rifle bring in the UK market?

Many people in the UK used to shun rifles that had been to India, probably because they had generally seen very hard service & were often quite worn, & also because they were often linished of original markings & then refinished to a truly dreadful standard. However, I think things have probably improved a bit & most people I know would not reject a rifle just because it had seen Indian service, but they would want to ensure that it was in good mechanical condition & not worn out & only fit for deactivating!

The last few Indian FTR SMLEs I have had recently have all been really good with barrels that gauged more or less as new, a few years ago they would have been hard to shift, but nowadays they seem to sell as well as any other factory names.

It used to be the same with Lithgow SMLEs & Savage No4s as well

I see "11/440875"

My No 5 is also an 11/44 Fazakerley production... it has also done the tour of India. The remnants of the markings on the rifle look to me to be 11/44D875. The serial is just a little closer to the date than normal, thats all. The first line of the D mixed in with the back of the last 4 as suggested by Roger above.

Here's a pic of mine. Because the engraving is so feint, I can't get a decent pic of it. I have traced over what I could make out with the pic blown up. The serial number is in the C8600 range, so not far before the OP's rifle given that there were only 9999 for each letter prefix.... about 2200 apart.

Attachment 66996

Looks like the wisdom of the crowd wins out with the original serial number being D prefix and 875. The Indians couldn't decipher it easily either so just renumbered it. Like lots of our No8's Mk5 Stens and L2A3's

Many thanks for the replies which allowed me to learn more of what the Indians did with the rifle, especially to Peter and Roger!

I am under the impression that the rifle in question here was probably overhauled in Indian, and afterwards being put on stock. It's still thickly covered in cosmoline, I had to clean the receiver before I was even able to take the first pictures.

And as Simon suggested, the barrel will probably gauge as new (and as we're by this topic, Peter which gauges did you use to determine the condition? Would be interested to measure this according to military standards).

Son, is your rifle also Indian renumbered? If yes, in which serial range is it?

The barrel gauges were the same as for the No4 which I'm sure have been mentioned here many times. But as I have mentioned recently, those days of ascertaining a barrels condition by what the gauges say are long gone. Now it is simply done on the CHS and the bore gauge* which on yours, the .301" plug bore gauge must run freely. Then the accuracy test which will make or break it. On No5's, loose flash eliminators were a bit of a pain too but were easily corrected
* obviously bulges, puckers, severe cuts and pitting will condemn it too

My rifle has the original serial still clearly stamped on the left side of the butt socket. It has no Indian markings on it referring to FTR/ FR or ownership. Other than the "Ishy screw" and "RFI" stamped in microscopic size on the sight elevation dial, the bolt knob has been drilled out to 7/16"- there is nothing else to indicate service in India.