Printable View
Hi Guys,
I was very excited to receive these bad-boys today.
They are "prefit's" (read minor fitting required) for the No1Mk111 standard profile, No1 Mk111 (Lithgow) heavy profile, No4 .303 and No4 7.62.
The .303 barrels have been custom made to a major bore diameter of .311, they are fully chambered, timed with some additional underturn, and they have the extractor cutout made.
There's no shortage either!
Now that's a pile of barrels!
Don't tease. How much, and can you export to UK?
I see that they have the little "adjustment collar" at the rear of the tenon. Very crafty.
Your next task, should you choose to accept it, is to build a few "body gauges" so that gun-plumbers are not trying to re-barrel "flogged-out" receiver bodies. You could "rent" them to "approved" workshops or something.
"Gauging" the bolt bodies is a bit simpler, just start with a granite plate and a good height gauge, neither of which are likely to be found in your corner gun shop.
I've done a little bit of barrel swapping (No1) and found the first stumbling block you can face is stretched threads in both the receivers and the pull off barrels. Some combinations just will not index without shims, and then, unless the receiver has very little wear, you can struggle to find a bolt head to get to spec.
Starting with new made barrels should about halve that problem, but I'm with Bruce in Oz WRT needing some way to check the receiver for stretch and locking lugs wear. If there is an inspection bolt or two among the members here, I wonder if a suitable gauge could be made from the measurements.
Am I reading too much into this?
BinO and Son are DEAD right..... There will be some who will ignore the bleedin obvious and rebarrel a totally worn out body. That'll be a body that wouldn't CHS with any size 3 bolthead on an inspectors calibrated bolt body originally. But breech up now with a new barrel adjusted to a 0 bolt head.
It's not body stretch that concerns me particularly for reasons I've mentioned before but the worn out/worn through locking lugs
One thing I did in working through the details of this project getting to the point where I was comfortable doing this first production was ensure that these barrels had to be set-up, not just "screwed in". The intention being that they had to be fitted by a gunsmith, with a lathe and a reamer. The lathe to adjust the timing as they have a very small amount of excessive underturn, and the reamer/lathe to adjust the final headspace.
There is no difference between how you set these up, and how you would set up a rebarrel from a blank, except in my product the vast bulk of the work if done in advance. In that sense it is a question for the gunsmith and the owner of the rifle to be rebarrelled as to whether a rifle is a viable rebarrel option. This is a decision made every time a rifle is rebarrelled by any gunsmith, not only when using semi-fitted blanks commonly referred to as "pre-fits", such as these.
It is a fact that not every individual action is perfectly safe, which is true of all makes and models, and that is something any shooter or gunsmith would be a fool to ignore.
...and there lies them problem. There was a process in service used to determine the remaining safe serviceable lifespan of a receiver. The gauging does not exist anymore other than in the hands of a couple of very fortunate collectors, not likely even known about by today's gubsmiths.
Just going off the top of my head but regarding the lack of gauges and as Son says probably a few in the hands of collectors, surely if a set of drawings can be had, (must be somewhere on the net or again a few fortunate collectors) then the only things required from the drawing are the datums and measurements to the locking lugs ?? with this information and armed with some sort of gauge then other factors can then be considered ?
So far as I recall, the body gauges were for the factory. When we rebarrelled at Field or Base workshop, then a No3 bolt head was NOT permitted. We also had a rack of new and gauged used but as-new barrels to select from for initial over/underturn. A No3 bolthead was not nor never an option at Field or Base workshop when rebarrelling. Only a No2 bolt head and if there was any doubt, then it was used with the Gauge Inspectors Bolt - a calibrated bolt kept by Robbie Robertson or Mr Saw (the Chinese Out-Inspector) in his oily gauge box. No CHS on a No2 head and the rifle was scrapped. Much more to it than that of course.
As a rule of thumb, this is what I'd be doing re new made barrels on used bodies. Examine body in minute detail. If you cannot CHS existing body/barrel on a No2 bolthead using the inspectors calibrated bolt then it indicates a worn body. And a new barrel ain't going to correct or cure a worn body so go no further. Would welcome further criticism - constructive or otherwise - as I'm just thinking on my feet here
Understand the Calibrated bolt Peter, but I was assuming the body was just that ..... a body and no barrel, hence the easier option of a gauge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I agree with Peter's stated method wholeheartedly. The problem with the new No.4 barrels in the USA is that they are all short chambered, have a higher shoulder and are intended to be finished on a lathe to any existing receiver/body. This eliminates the military, (MoD), method as described by Peter in thread #10 since any receiver/body will be able to get proper indexing and headspace on a #0 bolt head after trimming the shoulder and finish reaming. Personally, at least when it comes to the Lee Enfield, I much prefer the original method of the finished chamber and headspacing using a selection of bolt heads. Worn bodies really weren't addressed with the new civilian method of fitting the barrels leaving the problem intact as addressed here starting with Son.
If I was starting with a new body as Geoffs thread 11, then I would assume that it is just that, new with intact locking shoulders. But if I was starting with a well used - or ANY other body I'd start by putting a suitable stub-end of an unserviceable barrel in seeing how that CHS'd. If it went well with a 0,1 or 2 then carry on with the new made barrel. But when you're getting to a No3 bolt head, the REME inspectorate knew a thing or two about end-of-life expectancy when they decreed that a No3 bolt head could not be used as a standard at Base workshops.
These are only my views of course and look forwards to a long discussion on the subject..........
Excellent idea Peter. :thup:
I was having the same thoughts WRT the No1 receiver. Bit easier because the barrel locks up on the inside face and not the front shoulder of the receiver like the No4. Could you have a barrel stub that screwed in to lock on the rear face of the barrel and then go ahead testing the locking lugs with headspace gauges and a bolt body and bolt head set up to the same spec as the master bolt gauge? It could even be new made from one piece to take the screw join out of the equation. As long as the length of the gauge bolt from the rear of the bolt locking lugs to the front face was correct.... perhaps even just start with a new bolt body and add bar stock to the front and machine back to the spec?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Thanks Peter, "Arte et Marte" ......was thinking outside the box instead of KISS , plenty of stub ends to use also a few No1's also...... I mention bodies as I,ve accumulated a few over the years, some where OK when barrel removed but have a few that were part or bits of an auction lot........
peter, if you were going to design a new set of tooling to check an action, what would it be?
the design perimeters being: acceptably priced, simple to use, minimal parts and aimed at the small time re-builder with a limited supply of bolt heads etc.
thanks.
Peter may know of drawings or someone around the UK that may have squirreled the items here in Aus the only ones I can think of that may have what is required is the Lithgow museum, Brian Labudda or Skennerton himself what sticks out for the gunsmith like Tbone and others is the costs involved in the manufacturing of these spec tools and the amount of barrels fitted. It may be a flood gate will open up and I am sure there will be some owners who will be told their receivers are knackered and its not worth a re barrel also a not advisable to shoot it any more (Duty of Care).
And goodness knows how many people in the backyard world have stuffed a No.3 bolt head on to bring it up to a tolerable CHS to carry on shooting so there's the impasse cost to the gunsmith of getting a gauge made and then possibly having to inform an owner that his weapons receiver is flogged out and he really should not be shooting it.
I mean I would wear it if the receivers flogged and not viable to rebarrel then I guess take a chance on buying another younger FTR'ed No.4 rifle I am no millionaire but I value my head and that ain't no good if a receiver lets go and I wear the bolt it is extreme I know but in my emergency fire and rescue training always have the worst case scenario in your head and go from there. That's just my take on it so a bit gloomy but heck some of these rifles are pushing 100 years with a chequered history of which we at times have scant knowledge of.
If you have been using the rifle putting another barrel on it will not damage it.
You have already made the decision to trash the old barrel. Few people are going to throw away a receiver just to observe a 70 year old process that was dumbed down so the armorers would not have to use a lathe to rebarrel a rifle. If the case hardening is ok on the locking surfaces just rebarrel it like you would a hunting rifle. If not you can always use the official method which is to scrap your receiver and do without.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Mmmmmmmm........! A bit like curing your oily smoky and rattly worn out engine with a new set of rings. You experts certainly know how to make it sound so simple. I never really understood why it took 3 years plus another 2 to train us
....."sorry chief, could you repeat the part after "listen closely Max'"Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Attachment 67819
I often wondered why when serving my Apprenticship, when I look at lads who are "Engineers" in my job who have had minimal workshop training it does ring home, you can spot them a mile off when handling tools...... as for basics, totally lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Certainly rung home on a few courses I've done recently, its always good to hear from others "I've done this and this, been there done that, did a few years here, there and everywhere etc" yet when the hand tools come in to play, I doubt very much they have done anything with them apart from cleaning them.
Most of Bubba’d guns I see with shortened barrels look to be in otherwise very good mechanical condition. They nearly always CHS with the bolt head that’s in them and I have never seen a No3 bolt head. If the price of these new replacement barrels comes down, maybe some of these sworn off Bubba’d guns could be restored?
Why do you think the price has to come down. I replace barrels in other calibres on other rifles and can say those prices are lower than what I pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent
Restoring a Bubba’d gun is more than just a barrel change. You would have to buy all the wood, bands, etc. The cost of all the parts is more than buying a complete gun.
You still haven't told me why the new barrel price should be reduced. So you can rebuild one chopped rifle another complete rifle has to be wrecked. New barrels are just that to replace a worn out one on a shooter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent
As a collector and shooter I put rebuilding chopped rifles in the same class as chopping rifles they both destroy correct rifles one for parts the other to make something else.
I thought I did. Ok, let’s try this. At the current price it’s not economical.Quote:
You still haven't told me why the new barrel price should be reduced.
Is that how you do it? Most people here use reproduction parts. Why would you wreck a complete gun? That sounds illogical to me.Quote:
So you can rebuild one chopped rifle another complete rifle has to be wrecked.
What reproduction parts are available?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent
Well - reproduction barrels for one example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Homer
Correct because the supply of originals dried up but has left a large supply of other parts from the wrecked rifles, barrels were pulled from. In time these will dry up as well. Then the price of a complete rifle will be less than the sum of the parts it contains but will be higher than todays price for the rifle. Reproduction of parts at the moment is only very minor and only for very scarce few made things (example being No4T mounts, some model hand guards and sight protectors) , The making of these parts is smaller than a cottage industry really only a hobby.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield
There are also reproduction barrel bands, magazines, bayonets and wood sets. The wood sets get snapped up fast when they are available.
What allot of us non gunsmith types did is hedge the most essential parts when they came up, I started 15 years ago and have ensured my rifles will outlast with proper care and not having hot loads in them the rest of my time, my sons and hopefully his son. As a person not privy nor licensed with a dealership it is very hard to get the spider web collection of contacts nor do I have the capita to buy 5 or 6 complete No.4 stocks and as for MkIII's forget it too costly.
So repro parts it will be despite the millions of parts made some parts will never be finite and others will like actions, barrels, bolt heads all types, mags and complete bolts seem to be getting harder and more expensive to buy you only have to look at fleabay or sites like used guns, supply and demand with availability people that's the course we are on.
You place the fitting of a barrel my GS charges $300/AU to fit up a barrel add the cost of a new barrel say rounded to $500/AU = $800/AU you can get a reasonable shooter for that, I have enough 303's (thats what I tell the other half) but always looking for a Lithgow, my mate has a 1920 Lithgow I have tried to build a case to buy it (to keep my '21 company) but I get flashed and ashed when I mention it.............
In reply to Son this is the best way to listen.......Is it safe now Chief?
Without repro parts 250 or so No32 telescopes wouldn't be being used today.........
from reading a few threads on here i think we are getting close to the time when we will see people willing to spend the $ to repair worn out locking lugs rather than scrapping an action. whether it be the rifle that has been passed down 3 or 4 generations or a rare variant/year of manufacture.
with all of the knowledge here, would it be worth starting the discussion on how to do so safely and with an eye to keep as many of the original parts as possible?