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I recently purchased a trapdoor and was hoping someone could provide me with information on what model it is, a brief history or where I can find more information. At this point I don't know what to look under or where to look. The rifle is 51.75" long and the barrel is 31" long, caliber 45-70.
'pjohn':
A good basic book on 'Trapdoor' Springfields is: "The .45-70 Springfield", by Joe Poyer and Craig Riesch (North Cape Publications - Paperback - about $20). It will answer many questions.
I believe your rifle, #320,08X, was made around 1886. It has the model 1884 'Buffington' rear sight. It has a 'Rod-Bayonet'.
At first I thought your Springfield was a Model 1888 - Rod Bayonet rifle, but, they did not start making those until the 1890s and they normally have a 'one-piece' trigger-guard. There was an earlier model 1884 (experimental) Rod Bayonet rifle of which 1,000 were built in 1885 and 1886. Possibly, your rifle is one of these, that was later updated and re-issued?
I would suggest that you post clearer detailed pictures on the 'Trapdoor' forums on "Culver's Shooting Pages" or the "Gunboards Forums" with your questions. There are some more advanced Trapdoor Authorities that participate there.
BTW - Nice looking Trapdoor!
According to "The .45-70 Springfield" by Frasca and Hill (expensive, but authoritative) the trapdoor serial numbers reached 306006 at the end of 1885, and 346727 at the end of 1886. So the number on the receiver puts it clearly in the middle of 1886.
As to the other components, doubtless someone will give it a detailed analysis. You may expect to receive some comments on the lines of "that's not the right part for that month in that year". That wouldn't bother me if I had such a good-looking rifle. Real rifles are issued, used, maintained, and even upgraded. For instance, large numbers were renovated and re-issued by Rock Island Arsenal (Frasca and Hill, P.196). That many (most?) are no longer in the identical configuration in which they once left the factory is to be expected. Don't worry about that, just get out and shoot it. Trapdoors in good condition with Buffington sights are just about the most accurate BP military rifles you can get, and easy to load for.
The rod bayonet and latch arrangement on the forend is from a Model 1888 rifle. It is not from the earlier so called "flat latch" model of which very very few were made. The trigger guard is from an 1884 model or earlier and does not match the rod bayonet . The serial number puts in the 1886 production year. This would appear to be a mixture of parts, possibly a Bannerman rifle. It, however, appears to be a perfectly sound and shootable rifle
I don't accept that everything unusual in U. S. Military arms was the product of Bannerman's or W. Stokes Kirk. Some peculiar 'Trapdoor' rifles may reflect rebuilding at Springfield.
We all agree the receiver is from 1886 and the OP's rifle shows an odd mixture of parts from 1884 and 1888 models.
Something did happen to most of the (1,000) 1884 'Trial Model Rod-Bayonet' Springfields (that were made in 1885-1886). Very few of the 1,000 exist. It is possible some were 'updated' to the 1888 Rod-Bayonet & catch mechanism.
It would be nice to see detail pictures of the OP's breech-block and Stock 'cartouche'. Because it is an unorthodox Springfield (but, obviously not a 'Bubba job'), I advise it get a good look from a knowledgeable and experienced Trapdoor collector.
Is it just me?
Three guys took time and tried to give John Parke of Md. a bit of insight and direction on his 'Trapdoor' Springfield questions.
Simply 'clicking' on the "Thanks Button" would let the responders know their efforts were read and appreciated.
(It's the only 'pay' we get).
Hear! Hear!
Sometimes I think I'm sending information into a black hole.
I enjoy your posts. Thanks Patrick!
Butler, that is a distinct possibility. If the cartouche on the stock is correct for 1886 this may be one of the very rare experimental round rod bayonet 1884 rifles. The front latch is still an 1888 but, according to Frasca, at least some of the rifles were later converted to the 88 latch.
If so this is a valuable rifle.
Jerry Liles
Original Poster has not responded. We will probably never know, if there is something rare about his 'Trapdoor'. Too bad, because we all learn from the unusual.
Yup, black hole effect again!
I did not know about the thanks button and I am saddened by my lack of consideration. My only excuse is I am new to this forum and did not see the button.
I am working on the requested information and will comply with your requests.
I've been shooting this rife and I've enjoyed it immensely. I am presently reloading cartridges with black powder and 405 gn bullets to ascertain results.
Sorry again.
Here are more photos, if more are requires let me know.
Attachment 68069Attachment 68070Not knowing your last digit prevents a completely accurate answer, but I can tell you that 320081 was one of the 1,000 experimental M1884 rod-bayonet rifles, so, at the very least you are in the right ballpark. Records are available for about 20% of them, and they span almost 4000 numbers, so consecutives are few and far between. Nearly all of them were rebuilt, at SA, to the new M1888 standard which had a much more secure latch. Usually such rebuilds have the new one-piece trigger guard, and a "proper" date, such as 1891, 1892, etc. However there is more wood in the earlier stock (it is about 1/8" longer and the rod groove is MUCH narrower) so it would have been possible to convert one. The wood differences are a huge barrier to anyone trying to fake the rare variety, of course! The originals are VERY rare, but the rebuilds bring no more money than a standard Model 1888 - but they are a curiosity and/or conversation piece. FWIW, my (original) M1884XRB is number 318991.
Thanks for all the info.
I really enjoy shooting this rifle and have begun loading black powder cartridges for it. Once hunting season is over, I will spend more time experimenting with loads at different ranges.
"Not knowing your last digit prevents a completely accurate answer..."
Looks like a 6 to me, so the complete number is 320086. Does that help?
Ooops - you know, it was late at night, and I admit to not looking at the additional pictures, not thinking they would make a difference. Actually, they don't change my answer, other than to add that the rifle is in well above average condition.
Just to confirm. The serial number is 320086.
Thanks for all the help.
I was cleaning the rifle and for the first time noted at the base of the trapdoor lid was a stamped:
"US
Model
1879"
Quotation marks mine.
What does this mean?
US Model 1878
Further correction (sorry):
NO rifles were ever marked "1878", though it is an easy mistake because some really do look as if they are. However, in ALL cases, the last digit is a too-deep "3". It is not clear whether this was due to a bad die, too much pressure, block slightly "out of gauge" (too thick) or what. Also, it is entirely proper to see the 1873 date well into 1887, as older blocks - which were identical save for the date - were used until supply was exhausted. The "1884" blocks appear well after the adoption of the model change, which basically referred to the new "Buffington" rear sight, as nothing else was changed at that time.
First off, I believe you. I've checked other references and of course you're correct. But, I'll tell you, I had it under a magnifying glass and it looks like an 8. So, it's a Model 1873, very nice. So again thanks for the great info.
When I was a young collector, we learned the Block Marking was "1873", but, looked like "78" on 'low-arch' Trap-door breech-blocks. I always assumed some wear or damage had occurred to the Stamping-Die.
Chuck, not all low-arch 1873 blocks have the issue - there are two font sizes, and the earlier (smaller) one is always crystal-clear. More to follow, after Christmas. And, a Merry one to all!!