A not-so-nice reaction to the NRA

I really do not want to start a fight, or to make folks mad...but I want to share a story with you and my frustration with the NRA.

A number of years ago I took my Nagant carbine to a local range in a small town and started a small grass fire shooting surplus ammo... not a big fire but what I think is that one of my rounds bounced off a steel gong over a hill into some dry grass.... (my best guess)
After shooting 40 rounds, I cleaned up my brass and put away my rifle and was just sitting there enjoying the range... when I saw what looked like dust coming from the backside of the range.... (I should have just driven away) but I ran over the hill and saw a small fire...maybe 8' by 10' in grass... so I started putting it out by stomping it out... next thing I saw was a helicopter over me taking pictures.... then about 15 minutes later the fire department arrived, 5 forest cops arrived, two hand crews arrived from the California Forestry and a water truck ....even 3 local police arrived just to laugh...

They put it out in minutes...by that time it had grown to maybe 20' by 30'....so I was happy to see them.... but then I got a $8500 bill from the Forestry for suppression costs... wait...that is why you go to a range and not shoot in the woods... is the range supposed to be a safe place to shoot ? I talked to the Forestry and they were nasty...so I called my insurance company and they said they would cover me...but I said no, I wanted to fight it... so I called the range master and he said they had NRA insurance... but he had no idea how to access it.... so I called the NRA... guess what, you can't get past the phone operator.. I complained so hard they finally let me talk to someone in Political Reform... she told me I was on my own..I could call advertisers in the magazine who might represent me but I would have to pay them...other than that they would not help me...at all... I quickly cancelled my NRA membership and said some things that I am not real proud of....
Next I called my congressman and he said he would take it to Washington and talk with the Secratery of the Interior.... he called back and said he thought it would be fine...just do not go back and start another fire.... then I got a suponea to appear in a Federal Court... another call to my pal the Congressman...and back to Washington.. this time he called me and said....no more... I can't go back there again...that guy now hates me.. but he will not press charges on you... (he said he lost a friend over this)... and don't call him again...
And it did go away...I am sure I am guilty, and I am sure they would love to burn me...but I was at a legal range, and it was inspected and determined safe by who ? the Forestry...so am I wrong ? My point is that we think the NRA is here for the individual, but they are not..they support the hobby/sport on a nationwide basis...but don't care about the poor person that accidently runs afowl of the law...

Sad story. I would like to say your location is the problem with the USFS part but it is nation wide. Had a similar disappointing experance with the NRA insurance.I would think the range would have the resposability to maintain insurance for such things. What if there were many folks at the range how could they hold everyone responsable?

Why admit any guilt in the first place? You don't know for sure you started the fire, correct? Even if you did know it was you, the best thing to do is keep your mouth shut,,,,you know, plead the 5th.

If you were you shooting tracers, I could see a problem. Never saw ball ammo start a fire.
My questions are, were all your rounds on target? Did the range have NRA Range approved berms? Would you have a called shot out of the range? Rocks in the berm? ETC.
Proof of guilt is the prosecutors job. No proof, sorry about their luck.
Ed

If you own a machinegun, you will quickly figure out the NRA is not your friend.

Our club has its own insurance, we are not allowed to shoot steel on our range, are required to have a 1,000 ltr fire unit on the range during summer our range is surrounded by 1100 hectares of pine forrest we are not allowed tracers nor A.P ammo and one save I suppose the range is owned by the Australian Commonwealth - The Army.
Sometimes these big organisations pick their fights and one that gets them exposure how often has the little man who pays his dues been left holding the bag because he cannot afford a high class lawyer but they forget where their money comes from and that is from its members.
I hope you can move on and get back to enjoying range time at a different range.

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Originally Posted by WarPig1976

Why admit any guilt in the first place? You don't know for sure you started the fire, correct?

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I have no idea how Forestry could "prove" you started the fire unless you "confessed" to it. I'm not a lawyer, but it would seem to me the responsibility is with the Range. And as long you weren't careless/negligent or started the fire intentionally, they had no cause to serve you. You could just has easily claimed you were simply playing Good Samaritan, which you were. Judges are generally kind to Good Samaritans.

wow, I expected to be bashed by all the NRA lovers.... and I appreciate your replies... Yes, you bet I did not own up to starting it.... but I really think I did....I was shooting military 7.62 by 54 Russian ammo... no tracers... what the Forestry said was one of my rounds hit a gong and sent a hot piece of steel over the hill into the grass...... and indeed when I looked after the fire there was all sorts of spent bullets in the burned area.... lots of em, so it was a problem waiting to start.... and that would have been my defense if I went to court, but lucky for me my congressman was willing to fight for me.... nice guy, I am sorry I had to bother him but that is his job .... lucky he is not a anti gun freak... (kalifonia is full of em)

I do think nationally the NRA is doing a good job in the big picture...my point is they sure don't care much about the individual....just the donations for the new building and perks.

Now the funny part..... (all of this would be funny if it was not me).... I only live about 10 miles from the range, and work as a firefighter....when I got home, the cops had beat me home and had a wanted poster posted in the firehouse.....called me Ruby Ridge R----- (my name)....had my picture and all...they really worked making it look real.... everywhere they knew I would go they posted one... damm cops... Ha, I owe them one...tha'ts the sort of stuff that happens when you live in a tiny community. I live in a rural county that feels everyone should carry and permits are easy to get.....

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::rofl::lol::lol::lol::lol : one for the police dept.......

I am not sure exactly what your beef is. You had insurance that would cover the bill but you wanted the NRA to come in and spend g-d knows how much money to defend you for free on an issue that had nothing to do with the NRA's purpose.



The NRA only gets involved in cases that will establish precedence and or have a potential for personal injustice affects 1) firearms ownership, 2) carrying/transporting firearms 3) self-defense, 4)hunting rights, 5) range retention. 6) import laws, 7) ammunition restrictions. In your case the issue was a civil fine which would be accessed due to supposed negligence, related to starting a fire on government land. None of the above issues were in play, it had no relevance to the NRA's purpose of defending firearms use and ownership rights.

You did not go retain a lawyer... you could have tried that. In cases over 20 dollars you can demand a trial by jury. You could have made them prove it was your round, prove in some way your actions were negligent....etc. Of course it would have cost you money. Why do you expect the NRA to cover it? In any case your congressman cleared it up for you. seems like a decent outcome.

Don't get me wrong, but if the NRA got involved in every little action that anyone who was a member thought they had been wronged in they would be broke in a year. Second if they had got involved it might have gotten the range closed. When you fight city hall, they sometimes do that just to let you know who is really the boss.

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

When you fight city hall, they sometimes do that just to let you know who is really the boss.

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This is really an important issue. When you fight any war, you must play the chess game many moves in advance to know how you will win before your first salvo. The problem with fighting government is they always have a long term strategy to avoid antagonistic precedents, and they have very deep pockets to keep lawyers employed.

In hindsight, the best strategy would probably be to hire a lawyer to file for a jury trial, (which might cause government to settle out of court), then represent yourself in trial, claiming that there was no preponderance of evidence that could tie you to the fire, and that this is a classic David and Goliath case (juries don't like government Goliaths).

I think the OP's point is that the range had NRA insurance, correct? Since the fire was started behind the range, possibly from shots fired by someone legally using the range, I would have thought it would be the range's responsibility to make sure they had fire clearance behind, and the issue would indeed be in the interest of the range to sort out. By not supporting this owner, the range (and by default the NRA who the range has insurance with) has now allowed a precedent to be set wherein the range (and anyone on it) can be blamed and held accountable for any fires starting downrange.

Having said that, some of the other posters are correct too--what the NRA would cover or would not cover would be determined by the type and terms of the insurance the range has with them, and the type and terms of the insurance provided to members. I live in Canada, and have some insurance coverage through the wildlife federation, but I am not at all certain that it would extend to covering issues relating to property damage possibly caused by my firearms or their use. Probably not. So, there was a fire behind this range, which may or may not have been caused by the OP's spent bullet (seems highly unlikely if not tracer) or perhaps sparks from a steel gong (also seems unlikely if it was outside the range berm). The OP's guilt or involvement in the fire was never proven or indeed provable, so should have been fought at the time. Whether that should have been fought by the range or by the OP is a matter of debate--I would say the range since it affects future use of the range by all shooters. Governments and government departments will ALWAYS try to blame someone, just like insurance companies will ALWAYS deny a claim just to see if they can get away with it. Usually, if they are challenged (prove it was started by a bullet, prove it was my bullet--too bad, so sad, you can't) they back down pretty damn quick.

IMO, the range itself is not worth going to if the manager doesn't know what his insurance covers and what it doesn't, and if the management is going to let the feds walk all over a legitimate user. If the story is indeed as it is set down, then the range has just set itself and its membership up for serious troubles in the future. Not sure whether or not the NRA should have been involved or not. Just my two cents' worth.

Ed

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Originally Posted by Seaspriter

...The problem with fighting government is they always have a long term strategy to avoid antagonistic precedents, and they have very deep pockets to keep lawyers employed...

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And let us all consider who keeps those pockets filled! :eek:

Russ

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

I am not sure exactly what your beef is. You had insurance that would cover the bill but you wanted the NRA to come in and spend g-d knows how much money to defend you for free on an issue that had nothing to do with the NRA's purpose.

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He said the range is insured by the NRA.

There is a range near me that requires NRA membership, supposedly because they are insured by the NRA. That leads people to believe they are covered by the NRA insurance.

So I get it the club supposedly had NRA insurance, based on the following:

" I called my insurance company and they said they would cover me...but I said no, I wanted to fight it... so I called the range master and he said they had NRA insurance... but he had no idea how to access it.... so I called the NRA... guess what, you can't get past the phone operator.. I complained so hard they finally let me talk to someone in Political Reform... she told me I was on my own..I could call advertisers in the magazine who might represent me but I would have to pay them...other than that they would not help me...at all... I quickly cancelled my NRA membership and said some things that I am not real proud of...."

In a 30 second on-line search I found.............the NRA insurance site. It was literally the first thing to come up when I searched " Gun Range Liability Insurance" using Bing. Here is the page for the NRA endorsed insurance:

Gun Club Insurance - Comprehensive Protection for your Club Members. Endorsed by the NRA


It would appear the NRA does not offer insurance themselves, but endorses insurance by outside companies. It seems the NRA effort is to provide a large enough pool of folks to make the insurance affordable, as if you were to go to a general carrier you might find that the liability costs to be much higher because they have an insufficient pool to spread the risks over. The insurance companies get a nice pool of clients, the NRA allows their members to get decent coverage at a low cost.

Notice on that page it is quite easy to file a claim. Of course you will require a active policy and it's number. Now if you have that policy number and company, you could go straight to the company. But the NRA makes it quite easy to file a claim directly from their site:

Request a Claim



Now the chap that started this post apparently decided after not getting a phone operator in the political department to have knowledge on insurance to give up after letting the big-bad-NRA know how upset he was. Well I very much doubt he had the policy number, which would have given him the means to contact the company and figure out how to file a claim even if he did not have a computer or know about the hidden mysteries of what is called a "SERACH ENGINE". Now pardon me if I fail to have a great deal of sympathy for his plight, as it seems he did not do any homework at all. He could have contacted someone in the club to get the policy number, if the idea of doing a search online never occurred. he did very little before coming on-line to besmirch the name of the NRA.


So again...I fail to see that the poster has any kind of an issue with the NRA. In fact he is very lucky he was not subject to a lot more harassment by the BLM, based on the story below:

The story behind the Oregon armed standoff

Fact is the fine was just the start of his legal issues. He could have faced criminal penalties as well, it seems the BLM is run by a bunch of power mad ---------. Fact is he should send his congressman a large package of something.

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

The story behind the Oregon armed standoff. Fact is the fine was just the start of his legal issues. He could have faced criminal penalties as well, it seems the BLM is run by a bunch of power mad ---------

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Frederick, you are correct: This is an unbelievably frightening story of the government gone mad. The idea of Justice, Fairness, and Sense of Proportion has totally out of line. In the Oregon situation, the idea of "Rule of Law" has become Draconian. Law without Compassion, Law without Proportion, Law without Sensibility is not what democracies or American ideals were designed for. How sad we so often come to a point when some government officials forgets their purpose is to serve the people, to preserve our civility, and to encourage people to do the right thing. At a point in US history when more than one male in one hundred is behind bars, we should be questioning the values we teach and profess to the younger generation.

I still can't get over he admitted to it......:rofl:

No, I did not admit to anything.... it was years ago, so now I don't worry about saying that I probably did do it...but not then...

Plus I wanted to fight it, not pay it... I do not think I was doing anything wrong...I was at a sanctioned rifle range and not shooting tracers or anything illegal .... I kinda think the range was at fault by not having a clear range... it was a local range run by the local gun club and all members are supposed to be NRA members... I did not want my homeowners to just pay up as that would be admitting guilt...and I was not going to do that.....

I called the range and talked to the range master who was just an elected member of the club and had never thought about how to access the NRA insurance that he said they had.... again I really did not want them to pay.... I wanted to fight. I do think the NRA acted like jerks when I called them.

I dislike the NRA for how I was treated, and yes I do know they are our only defense against the gun lobby. What my point is...if you ever have a problem...don't expect anything from the NRA.

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Originally Posted by jrapose

No, I did not admit to anything.... it was years ago, so now I don't worry about saying that I probably did do it...but not then...

Plus I wanted to fight it, not pay it... I do not think I was doing anything wrong...I was at a sanctioned rifle range and not shooting tracers or anything illegal .... I kinda think the range was at fault by not having a clear range... it was a local range run by the local gun club and all members are supposed to be NRA members... I did not want my homeowners to just pay up as that would be admitting guilt...and I was not going to do that.....

I called the range and talked to the range master who was just an elected member of the club and had never thought about how to access the NRA insurance that he said they had.... again I really did not want them to pay.... I wanted to fight. I do think the NRA acted like jerks when I called them.

I dislike the NRA for how I was treated, and yes I do know they are our only defense against the gun lobby. What my point is...if you ever have a problem...don't expect anything from the NRA.

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Holy Cow Man.. You didn't do your own due diligence to research the rifle ranges statement about insurance. Then you toss that into the fact that you called the NRA for assistance without anything factual that would enable them to possibly help you. Then you state.."I wanted to fight" :confused::confused:

Now your badmouthing the NRA for your own in-emptitude. :yikes::yikes: