An Old War Horse

I picked this up last week, an 1897 M1891 Carcano rifle. I had missed out on a nicer one at nearly twice the price, but as we like to say, this one screams 'been there, done that.' I sold my 1944 M38/43 TS 8mm conversion to get this - it only lasted 14 minutes on Gunboards before it sold.

This is a well-used old warhorse still in its original long rifle configuration, and chambered in 6.5mm Carcano. This rifle was made at the Torre Annuzia Arsenal in 1897 with serial number VX791. This rifle was re-arsenaled, repaired, or rebuilt several times. The stock had been replaced at some point as its original serial number had four numbers. There are eight nice period splice and peg arsenal stock repairs at the toe, top of tang, front and lower band. I've since glued the long crack on the left side. There is an arsenal ‘star’ repair mark on stock and a re-arsenal symbol on the receiver. Bolt serial number ML3546 has been lined out. The barrel shows use but cleaned up well with strong rifling and only a little roughness. Carcano sling is an original I had from the T/S, I'm looking for an original long Carcano cleaning rod. Almost certainly saw service in both World Wars.

T

The M91 could have served with my M70/87/15 Vetterli (1916 conversion of an 1884 Brescia).

T

The rear tang is up awful high, might want to check to see if it is screwed down properly or if something is under it. If it's not that, they removed a lot of wood from the stock. Looks like crossed rifles in the fifth photo which is a plus. Considered to be more accurate than average. Cleaning rods are tough. Prices are in the $50 range.

I disassembled it and put it back together - the tang remains high. Maybe the tang splice is too low? First shot last weekend broke the extractor. I've one on the way now. On the third shot, the front of the hand guard fell off. The three shots were just above a paper plate at 11:30-1:30 at 50 yards. Will try again.

T

What style of extractor do you have? The early kind which went through the bolt lug, or the later one?

You aren't loading without the chargers are you? Carcanos can't be loaded single shot, they have to have the chargers. If you are using the chargers, the guy who fired it last probably didn't have them and that's how the extractor got broke.

The shells have to slide up and into the bolt head. If you put the cartridge into the chamber, the bolt head and extractor have no way other than brute force to get over the rim of the case.

The crossed rifles is an inspection mark . One rifle out of a batch would be pulled out for inspection . There is no reason that would make it any more accurate that any other rifle of that batch .

There is a way to load Carcanos without chargers that doesn’t damage the extractor…. see video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ5pnmFUyEI

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Originally Posted by bob q

The crossed rifles is an inspection mark . One rifle out of a batch would be pulled out for inspection . There is no reason that would make it any more accurate that any other rifle of that batch .

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The crossed rifles superimposed over a bullseye, otherwise known as the Tiro a Segno Nazionale (National Sharp Shooters) accuracy mark, was stamped on the barrel of Carcanos that exhibited above average accuracy and during WWII rifles so marked were set aside for use as sniper rifles by the best marksmen of an Italian unit. The TSN mark can be found on all M1891 Carcano variants, including the Cavalry carbines with folding bayonets. It's normally found on the left side of the barrel shank but I have an M41 with it on the right side.

That is an old internet myth . When a factory is making 1000's of rifles a day there is no way each rifle is test fired with the amount of ammo that would be needed to tell what rifle is the most accurate . They would need more shooters than they have rifle builders .

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Originally Posted by bob q

That is an old internet myth . When a factory is making 1000's of rifles a day there is no way each rifle is test fired with the amount of ammo that would be needed to tell what rifle is the most accurate . They would need more shooters than they have rifle builders .

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Clearly you do not know what you are talking about. If it was a myth, it would not be well documented. All it meant is the rifle displayed superior accuracy in testing. It is not like they were sniper rifles, all it was, was that particular rifle showed a better result on the initial tests. Superior accuracy likely meant, the standard is 'X' at 100m, this rifle did better than that.

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Originally Posted by bob q

That is an old internet myth

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I first learned the meaning of the ''crossed rifles'' mark in the '80's from a book on WWII small arms that was published in the 1950's.

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

Superior accuracy likely meant, the standard is 'X' at 100m, this rifle did better than that.

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Exactly. It don't take a whole truckload of ammo to determine whether or not a rifle will meet the standards. The Finns would scrap an M39 if it failed to keep a certain number of rounds in a 1.3'' group at 100 meters.

The extractor goes through the bolt head. The one that came today is too long.

T

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Originally Posted by Vincent

There is a way to load Carcanos without chargers that doesn’t damage the extractor…. see video.

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That is so simple and awesome but I had to laugh when he did it.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

That is so simple and awesome but I had to laugh when he did it.

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I was cringing. I could see that going wrong if you weren’t very careful.

I think a 6.5 charger can be converted for 8mm.

I did take a Dremel to a Carcano clip for an 8mm 38/43 T.S. It worked, but not well. I sold it to get this one.

T

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Originally Posted by Vincent

I was cringing. I could see that going wrong if you weren’t very careful.

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Yes, afterwards when my brain kicked in I had a couple of thoughts that I may have to investigate. The primary one being where exactly is the firing pin during all this, is it under tension or inside the bolt. Have to dig one out to check I guess.

I watched this video expecting to see a man somehow hand feed a round from the empty magazine, thinking I might just learn something here. Instead I observe a man attempting to use an Italian rifle as an 8mm pen flare launcher.

:madsmile:

The ejector that came was the later, longer type. The search continues for a short, early style.

T[COLOR="black"]

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

Clearly you do not know what you are talking about. If it was a myth, it would not be well documented. All it meant is the rifle displayed superior accuracy in testing. It is not like they were sniper rifles, all it was, was that particular rifle showed a better result on the initial tests. Superior accuracy likely meant, the standard is 'X' at 100m, this rifle did better than that.

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Most rifles were only fired with a proof round . Please show me the Italian military document that supports what you say .

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Originally Posted by bob q

Most rifles were only fired with a proof round . Please show me the Italian military document that supports what you say .

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Why don't you show us the Italian military document that supports what YOU say.

These markings are not common but they are well known as has been pointed out by numerous members of this forum. As already pointed out, this symbol signifies the rifle has some association with the "Tiro a Segno Nazionale," the Italian National Shooting Organization, be it a prize awarded to a match winner or that it was produced specifically for competitions. Given that, it is to be expected to be of somewhat better quality, thus more accurate than the standard run of the mill rifle. It has not been claimed by anyone here that this is a sniper rifle, just better than most.

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Originally Posted by bob q

Most rifles were only fired with a proof round

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Yes but this was for proving the action only. Next the rifle would've surely been fired with at least one magazine of service rounds to ensure it functioned properly and met accuracy standards.

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Originally Posted by vintage hunter

Yes but this was for proving the action only. Next the rifle would've surely been fired with at least one magazine of service rounds to ensure it functioned properly and met accuracy standards.

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Pretty much how the Soviets selected their sniper rifles in WWII. Those with better accuracy went back for further finishing and scope mounts.

Most countries tested there rifle for accuracy after the targeting shots or concurrent with same once they got good at setting the sights based on bore-sighting.

It is known the Germans, Canadians, Swiss, Brits did it and the US (but not rebuilds in all cases). Number or rounds per rifle was typically 5 to 7, hardly a huge drain on a nations supply of cartridges.

Not sure about the Italians but one would expect them to do that as well. While we view them as jokes now, the Italians were not seen that way prior to WWII, Liddell Hart upon seeing them on maneuvers in the 1920s called them an army of panthers (or something to that effect).