New Martini Henry MK IV

Been wanting one for a couple of years but not having much luck finding them. Noticed a fellow putting them up on Gunbroker and happened to take note of his location. Turns out he's 15 minutes from me so I made arrangements to see a few on Thursday evening. He pulled half a dozen out for me, some cleaned, some untouched. I took a chance and opted for an untouched one. These are from the Nepal stash, he handpicked them when he purchased them and out of 60, he only found one with a bad bore.

Seller on Gunbroker is: markthenav

Based on my experience with him, he's very knowledgeable and describes his rifles in great detail. He does not to my knowledge sell untouched on gunbroker but his cleaned ones are quite reasonable.

Mine is complete, came apart with only one problem, the cocking indicator was beat to crap and did not come out easily, in fact part of it sheared off going through. It had been flattened larger than the hole. It was not an issue with the screw. I'll have to build it back up with a weld I guess and retouch the end. Bore is very nice but the weirdest rifling I've ever seen. Almost no rust on exterior but some pitting under the wood line on the barrel, nothing deeper than about a 32nd of an inch. Wood is solid, has some light tiger striping. Took me about 5 hours to strip, clean and reassemble it. Now for a few more coats of BLO.

If you can tell me anything about the history or the markings, I'd appreciate it.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...am4o544c-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...hnqliakk-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...jizalorh-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...viitoek9-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ysm1ssya-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...dg6pvrxa-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...c11hsfig-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...wevtrwdd-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2ryhxllp-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...zysfk7fv-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ef7fqghk-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...hqtlnwpb-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...zgnsxy3o-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...gawmrkhk-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...qv31wphf-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tv3v1q9t-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...lnjif244-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...uhouygej-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...aice7geo-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...vqpcxiin-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...r9s8lmim-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6djzfmut-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9c0p7o5y-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...14tkegac-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mwr97poa-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1wvy55yz-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...hn6miaob-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...vuallgc8-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...yj94mloz-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...akjgfbwq-1.jpg

Am I seeing this correctly?

The roundel butt marking here, where one can see an "ON" at 3 o'clock:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ef7fqghk-1.jpg

do not seem to be the same as the butt markings here, where the ON is no longer visible.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1wvy55yz-1.jpg

The deep scratch between the roundel and the rectangular armory stamp is also greatly reduced. Did you perhaps undertake some "dent removal" treatment? It now almost looks as if it was overstamped.

As no Martini-Henrys were being made in 1908 - apart from Khyber-Pass Specials! - the fragment visible in the first (uncleaned state) photo probably shows a later overstamp from an Indian/Nepali facility, while in the second photo (cleaned state) I think I can just about make out an "ENFIELD" in the bottom half of the roundel.

Try turning the butt around slowly in a strong but directional light (to bring out shadows) and maybe you can make out more than is possible from the photo.

---------- Post added at 11:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 PM ----------

Receiver :
The rifle was a newly-made MkIV, not a conversion.
Since the Mark was centered, a conversion from a MKI, which would originally have had the I centered, always has the V, which was added later, on the right of the I, making the IV off-centered.

Barrel:
N.S. = Native Service
N.E.P. = Nepal

---------- Post added at 11:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 PM ----------

You will now have to add Skennerton's "A Treatise on the British Military Martini" to your "to get" list. Wherein, amongst other information, you will find that this is a MKIV type "C"... all new parts, full-length knoxform /unlike A and B types) and the later ramp foresight.

---------- Post added at 11:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 PM ----------

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aragorn243

the cocking indicator was beat to crap and did not come out easily, in fact part of it sheared off going through. It had been flattened larger than the hole. It was not an issue with the screw. I'll have to build it back up with a weld I guess and retouch the end.

---

Contact Peter Dyson in the UK. He might have an original spare part.

---------- Post added at 11:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 PM ----------

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aragorn243

Bore is very nice but the weirdest rifling I've ever seen.

---

That's not weird, it's Henry rifling! (I hope).

Upset a .45 lead bullet in the bore, at the start of the rifling. When you get it out, you will be able to see the profile.

Going around the circle, I can only make out PIND and later a WUL. Already have a replacement cocking indicator on the way from IMA. Figured buying a replacement would save a whole lot of aggravation trying to fix the existing one. It's bent and worn a bit on the end also. It was so frustrating watching the videos of guys just tapping these out. I didn't want to hurt anything so it took forever and it still broke. To get it back in, I had to grind it down a bit.

The rifling is correct for the rifle, just never encountered it before. Wide land, then double small grooves is best way to describe it.

I believe the roundel is: Rawul Pinda which is an Indian Arsenal. 1908 is the year of disposal The 1 indicates first class weapon.

So it would seem this saw Indian service until 1908 and was transfered to Nepal at that time or was refinished in 1908 by the Indian arsenal for transfer to Nepal in either the second or third batch. This roundel supposedly is over stamped over the original which could be Enfield and why I can't read anything on the bottom.

Patrick,

Missed your first post somehow.

No, I didn't do any dent removal, just washed it twice. I didn't do anything around any of the markings other than rub them with oil. Used some steel wool on the very top of the buttstock because it got fuzzy when I washed it. Everyplace else was nice and solid. Photos are at different angles and I'm sure the crud did emphasis some things and reduce others. The long scratch at the top was almost all in the crud and was fresh so when cleaned off, it nearly disappears. Never really noticed the one between the stamps.

It isn't ON, it's ND and I have confirmed the armory Rawul Pinda.

There are other faint markings in the stock. There is a faint crown over a number below the lever and an E D mark along with what looks like a circle with wings on each side on the bottom of the forestock.

Thanks for the clarification. The usual spelling is Rawalpindi, but I agree that it looks like Rawul... It seems that the original Enfield roundel was completely crudded up, and Rawalpindi simply applied their stamp on top if it, crud and all. That is why the Rawalpindi stamp is partially legible in the first photo, which shows no hint of the Enfield stamp. Crown over number and E D sounds like an Enfield inspection stamp.

"Circle with wings..." Photo please!

Well, whaddya know!

As I have the "older brother" of your rifle, I got it out and had a close look. Here are the results:

Attachment 68853

In this case, the Enfield stamp has been obliterated before applying the Rawul Pindi stamp
- or, of course, the butt is a replacement!

Please note, that what I wrote previously with regard to the MkI / MkIV marking does not apply if the conversion involved a new receiver (see Skennerton P.147) - as appears to be the case with my rifle.
Attachment 68851

The short knoxform and the old-style foresight block show that it is indeed a Type A conversion.
Attachment 68852

And here is the best photo I could make of the rifling.

Attachment 68854

But I cannot find any trace of fore-end marks as you described. Please tell me the exact position, and I will look again.

Here is an earlier reference to my Martini-Henry

Grease between Forend and Barrel - Some form of bedding?

---------- Post added at 07:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:19 PM ----------

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aragorn243

Been wanting one for a couple of years but not having much luck finding them.

---

Well it took me 4 years to find a good one, after seeing endless wrecks and Khyber-Pass Specials. So I reckon you too had some luck in the end.

BTW, the M-H was and IS a very tough rifle. Read about the test procedure in Skennerton (you know, that book you're going to get:D) and be duly shocked - you wouldn't want to do that to any gun! So if the rifling is good, you have a rifle that, with proper maintenance, will outlast all today's black plastic stuff with its fiddle-faddle levers, catches and springs*.

*Apart from anything else, the plastic will have degenerated long before it reaches the age of our M-Hs - 129 years and counting!

Patrick,

If you look at the fifth photo from the top on the left side you can see what I'm describing as a circle with wings. Sideways teardrops might be a better description. You can see the circle and the right "wing" pretty clearly. The left is fainter with both the crud and the cleaned version.

I do not think the Enfield stamp is completely gone. If you look close, you can see the outline of two circles, especially on the left side. The bottom of the stamp can't really be read because I think the Enfield is still there along with the newer stamp on top that just mixes everything up. There was a nice larger crown and I think a 2 stamped on the butt itself under the butt plate. I didn't take a photo of it.

There is also an interesting thin brass plate between the wood and the steel plate. Would this be original or was it something added in the field. In any case, it appears to be there to keep the wood from touching the steel and causing either rot or rust and it appears to have worked as the interior of the buttplate is nicer than most I've taken off. It's very thin and has the bend at the top included.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aragorn243

There is also an interesting thin brass plate between the wood and the steel plate. Would this be original or was it something added in the field. In any case, it appears to be there to keep the wood from touching the steel and causing either rot or rust and it appears to have worked as the interior of the buttplate is nicer than most I've taken off. It's very thin and has the bend at the top included.

---

That is original, and was indeed used to separate wood and steel. The M-Hs also had brass buttplate screws. Since both the predecessors and the successors had brass buttplates, it seems to have been an unsuccessful idea to save brass.

---------- Post added at 09:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:29 PM ----------

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aragorn243

If you look at the fifth photo from the top on the left side you can see what I'm describing as a circle with wings. Sideways teardrops might be a better description. You can see the circle and the right "wing" pretty clearly. The left is fainter with both the crud and the cleaned version.

---

My rifle has a barely discernable number in this position.

Mine has steel buttplate screws. I noticed a couple of the others he had had brass screws and was wondering about that.

I wouldn't fret about the screws. By 1908 the brass screw/brass shim idea had been abandoned, and SMLEs were the standard rifle, with a brass buttplate and steel screws. Maybe the buttplate had to be removed/replaced and the brass screws were so ruined that the armorer used the ones available - which would by then have been the steel screws for the Lee Enfield.

One thing that stands out about this rifle compared to others of it's time is it's small size. I think in my head I had it pictured much larger than it actually is. With that massive cartridge, I expect that's why it has a reputation for heavy recoil.

I tried getting a brown sling for this and they cancelled my order for some reason. Decided to get a white one after looking at period paintings. Wasn't sure if I would like it or not but it looks pretty sharp. Also picked up a brass muzzle cap for it and a replacement cocking indicator. still leaking oil after being washed twice. May have to give the stock cleaning another go.

Find a nice sunny spot on a warm day and set the stock out in the sun. The oils and grease will run out. Some people have reported putting the stock in a black trash bag with kitty litter in and put in their car to warm up the stock and get the oil and grease out of the pores.
john

Shortage of sunny days right now but I may just do that come summer. Not in a rush. It's not weeping that bad. I did my first stock on a dashboard in the sun about 25 years ago. Hard to believe it was that long. SMLE No III*. Winter time is next to the heaters but I take pity on my wife, she tolerates the "normal" smell but concentrated heated cosmoline is a bit much for her.

Someone one on another forum did a test on the grease on these rifles and others out of the Nepal cache. It was some kind of heavy petroleum grease that came out of the Burma region (if I remember right).

The "circle with wings" that you describe is a cancellation stamp, stamped over markings to cancel them out. Also occasionally used to separate lines of text/numbers in unit markings.

Looks like you've gotten a fine example there. The spelling of Rawalpindi/Rawul Pindi/Rawal Pindi does tend to be "flexible"...like a lot of the Indian place names of the era.