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after watching LE's come up for sale in australia for the last 9 month or so i have noticed that basically all of the no4's are either longbranch or savage with the exception being some low/no use fazakerly no4 mk2's.
were only savage and longbranch no4 mk1's imported to australia or is it just freakish luck that i haven't seen any maltby, faz or bsa mk1's?
thanks.
henry.
There's plenty around I have had a few over the years and currently have 2 maltby's and last time I was in Lawrance Ordnance he had a bunch of them.
Ihave a No4 that only has "ENGLAND" on it?
While I was in Oz in the 60's, while we'd heard of the No4's of course, they were fairly rare. I'd seen them of course but the Australian Armourers had heard about the Mk1/3 and 1/2 or Mk2 versions they'd never seen one in the flesh. I got a set of the drawings for the tech library at Bandiana which were copied several times.
Incidentally, has anyone out there modified a No1 rifle to trigger-on-body spec. It has been done because my boss in NZ did it to his
I had the pleasure of visiting the AWM in Canberra last year and asked to see their Maltby No.4 Mk1, amongst other items. The AWM reference # is REL/16298.
Rifle's date is 1941, serial is D18312, so an early No.4.
Receiver is stamped "R.O.F.M.N.o.4.MK.1.1941."
Interestingly, it has a 2-groove barrel and all the marked parts have maker's initials, not the S/M/Nxx factory numbers.
The lower furniture band is crude and thick, and the upper band (solid type) and front caps are painted black.
Back sight is a Mk II (300 & 600 yds, only), also, the cocking piece is a Mk VI round type (so a Mk I, I presume?), not the 'standard' No4 block with 3 grooves. The whole was clearly original and untampered with. An original survivor that's not been refitted etc.
They also have No.4T A38922, with No.32 Mk II 'scope Serial 11142.
Ian
(LERA #023, btw)
Quite a few of the early Maltbys seem to have Savage made MkI cocking pieces; never heard tell of a No1 MkVI type with the cross screw however.
One answer might be that they were both extensively used in NZ?, plus the RAAF used No4 Mk1/3 Savages for a short time Post War.
The RAAF at Butterworth had No4's - but definately not Mk1/3's. They were Mk1*'s (or 1/1's)
A lot of No 4 were imported Into Australia after 1961 when the various state rifle associations allowed them to be used in rifle competition. One reason you might see a lot of Savages is that in 1958 the US code as changed to dis allow the import of previously lend-leased rifles from being re-imported. As such the savage No 4 MK I* rifles were no longer allowed to be imported into the US of A. prior to 1985 they were kind of rare here in the states. In fact the stories told were the ones that were around had leaked in from Canada.
Am I correct in thinking that the Australian army never used No4 rifles but the Royal Australian Airforce did, if only for a short time? I have several No4 pig-sticker bayonets with what appear to be Australian acceptance markings which seemed curious as I thought the Australian army never used the No4 rifle. Would these bayonets have been intended for use by the RAAF? Thanks for any info.
There are Aussie marked No4 bayonets that went with the home garrison No 4s and RAAF rifles. The Aussie army were not equipped with No 4s unless they were in a situation where base work shops only repaired No4s then they were issued.
There is a photo of a No4 being carried in the swamps of New guinea on the cover of, "A Bastard of a Place", by Peter Brune. It is an Australian War Memorial photo, AWM 013971. Right there in the foreground is a grim-looking Digger clutching a No4. The photo "description" reads, " Troops of the 2/7th Cavalry make their way through a swamp to forward positions on the Sanananda front".
My own dad, who was a motor-mechanic in an Army Workshop at the time, swore that several individuals were issued No4 rifles. I suspect that the "proper" (No1Mk111(*)) rifles were used at the pointy end (apart from that "stray" at Sanananda), to simplify logistics in the field.
Dad never got much further north than Townsville whilst waiting for "Operation Olympus" to begin. Thus, between fixing busted gun-tractors and Bren Carriers, he and his fellow fitters and mechanics produced all manner of "souvenirs" made from old shell-casings of all sizes, aircraft canopy perspex, fuze-caps from 3.7" AA projectiles, etc. There was so much "once-fired" brass around, some enterprising lad set up a small foundry and was knocking out cast, solid brass models of commonly seen aircraft, like the Lightning and the Hudson. ("I have no live animals or farm-produce in my possession, SAH!")
Any No4 rifles in Oz service were probably diverted there after the fall of Singapore, that garrison no longer needing them.
I've certainly seen a few BSA No 4 Mk I rifles about - I know at least one person who owns one, and I've had a few shooting acquaintances at the range ask me what the "M47C" markings on their No 4 rifle means - but they do seem to be a lot less common than the Longbranch or Savage models for some reason.
New Zealand had quite a few No 4 rifles though, so I supect many of them made their way to Australia over the years.
Plenty of Savage & Longbranch, Britsh made No4s are quite scarce here toQuote:
Originally Posted by Colonel Enfield
This the pic?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz
That's the one.
It's trimmed a bit on the book cover.
Looks like they gave their horses the day off.
Either that, or they had the same problem as the Irish water-polo team.....
1942 and 1943 LB's seems to be the predominant no4 here in NZ, something like around75% are LBs I think, maybe it was one ship load for both countries in 1943.....
The 2/7 cav were apparently operating as a commando unit during the fighting around Buna, there is also a great many photo's in the AWM collection of diggers armed/using with M1 Garands and also using various misc bits of US kit mainly canteens in and around the fighting for Buna. Just goes to show the reality of what did and didn't get issued/used at the the pointy end isn't as clear cut as some history Nazis like to think it is :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz
Having to use what they could find may have been because the communist Wharfies and dockies would not load food and munitions onto supply ships bound for those areas. Thus causing critical shortages for our troops.
Ah......, not so quick Brent65. Photos occasionally need to be interpreted in much the same way as the spoken word. As an example, there is a photo doing the rounds of a German paratrooper at Monte Casino(?) holding a Bren. No......., I don't believe for one second that it was issued to him either! While at the same time some of the pure horse manure that's spoken and written by the armchair generals that needs to be dissected........ It's those who have read 10 books that go onto write book number 11 that you really need to fear!
Same as I'm sure the infamous pic of a SS Grenadier in the battle of the bulge wasn't issued the M1 Carbine he is carrying, not my point.
Peter the photographs being referred to are from the Australian war memorial collection not the opinion of some "expert" writing a book many decades after the fact. Most photos that I am referring are taken by official combat photographers, so yes I have a fair bit of confidence in the source being correct. In addition there are simply just far too many pictures with diggers using Garand's for it to merely be battlefield expedient pickups, not to mention the US troops fighting right alongside may have had something to say to their weapons being plundered.
Having seen with some hilarity the reaction that simply losing a pull though can sometimes generate I can just imagine with a wide smile the reaction from above when a large number of diggers try explaining as to where all their issued No1's had gone. While I appreciate M1's, No 4's or any number of other items quite commonly seen in AWM photo's that were never issued officially to us en mass it certainly doesn't mean it didn't happen in theatre for any number of reasons, it still happens today!
Now if it was Japs using Garand's then your point is well made.
Is the term "digger" referred to in this Thread by brent65 the Australian equivalent of the British "Tommy" or the American "GI" or in other words Australian slang for a Private infantry soldier???
you got it in one, flying10
Was at the Penrith antique and modern arms fair today, Maltby's everywhere and a Faz No5 not a savage or longbranch in sight. There was also a fake No4T for 5k at least it had a real No 32, same bloke had another No 32 with mount for $1800