Interesting L42A1 Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6sfVyQ4i-0
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Interesting L42A1 Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6sfVyQ4i-0
A rather tired example just sold on GunBroker for $8,000 US.
My opinion is that the last Lee Enfield must be the L59A1 or A2. Certainly it is numerically.
Presumably the last manufactured action body must be one of the UF A 3xxxx rifles?
Or the late no cut-off block unnumbered, left-in-white bodies that remained at Fazakerley (and later sent to Enfield) that were used on the first L39's!
Exactly WHAT constitutes the last Enfield would make an interesting thread...... LEE Enfield, MADE at Enfield, Numerically Enfield or......... what? Where does the L85 fit in?
Any chance the Lee Enfield pattern room having collared the last enfield for posterity! unless the example is privately owned.
Ahhhhhhhh The Holy Grail me thinks??
Exactly, I am pretty sure there are L-E versions that have been built in the last decade by the talented shops of the Khyber Pass, how does one exactly judge the "last" one?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
The PR has the FIRST production SA80, UE85A00001 and we had UE85A00002. These were retained as examples of how NOT to produce weapons that were not ready for service! The UK Military also has the very LAST full bore Lee Enfield in documented UK Military service. We had to specify 'full bore' in this case because zillions of the little No8's are still out there with Cadet Forces and units that have a requirement for them.
Peter, as an aside, or perhaps a separate thread entirely, what can you share about he SA80 rifle and it's actual development/production shortcomings?
As a (formerly) modern soldier I was always professionally interested in what toys everyone was bringing to the sandbox. Is all I have heard, is the basics, generic gripes and outsourcing to H&K for production.
I did have the opportunity to handle one in Helmand province, overall it was short and handy, although a bit weighty for the size. The SUSAT was nice and crisp but I did find the pickett did eat a lot of the sight picture. The main thing I found was loaded, and readied, the rifle balanced perfectly over the strong hand pistol grip, it could be easily pointed with one hand, and transitioned well between targets in the shoulder. However due to the operational setting at the time, I didn't have a chance to shoot it, I do remember the fellow seemed to be almost envious of our Diemaco C7A2 and C8A3's.
This may sound unusual, but even knowing the "stigma" behind the rifle my non-shooting overall impressions were positive.
To be honest Darren, it'd take a whole book to relate the woes of the little SA80. But I have been saved the job by Steve Raw who wrote a book called The Last Enfield published by Collector Grade. But there's always a silver lining to every dark cloud because the much heavily modified A2 variant seems to have put all its critics into their place and shown that while the basic design was good, it needed perfecting and trialling PROPERLY before it could be considered fit for service.
Some have said that too much emphasis was spent on pushing the rifle forward too early, others say that the trials teams were prevented from saying thins they ought to have been saying while others say that there were far too many fingers in the original pie. Quite whoever suggested that the little L86/LSW was a light support machine gun and could replace the Bren or augment the GPMG was clearly on another planet. A rifle with a bipod and a long barrel is simply a heavy rifle! (As were the RPK,and the heavy L2A1)
But that said, nobody can really complain about the A2 rifle. It is however a case of give a dog a bad name that the good A2 version has had to shake off. The SUSAT was the only part of the rifle that noone ever complained about so far as I recall.
Added later..... It has been told that H&K did all the work to improve the A1 version but that isn't quite correct. MOST of the ideas were formulated at Shrivenham by some of the brains and technical bods there including WO2 Ray xxxxx and one of the bit part contributors to this forum incidentally. H&K won the contract to put all of the relatively small ideas into one package. There were other bidders to do the work but politics and business and........ Lets stop here!
Anything major amiss with it now Skippy? Brit Plumber? Apart from the fact that they're all getting a bit tired now
Thank you for the post Peter, I will try to track down that book.
I had always thought this was a tactical delusion as well, the magazine capacity was not increased, and it lacks a quick-change barrel did it not? After basic training I was handed a C9 (FN Minimi) for the next few years of my soldiering career and grew to really appreciate the volume of fire delivered with 200 round belt boxes and barrels that could be changed in less than count to 3. The C9, like all Minimi's could be fed from standard rifle magazines in emergencies, with the gas set to adverse and no drag on the feed pawls from a belt, a clean gun would run at 1000+ rpm. A 30 round box would be depleted in 2 angry "burps" unless very dedicated trigger control managed to stop at 7-10 rounds per squeeze.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
All this discussion is irrelevant anyway. The last Lee Enfield was the No1 receiver, in whatever form the very last one off a production line was (2A1 ?)
The No4 was developed by the engineers at RASF Enfield to make it stronger and easier to produce utilising modern machining techniques and was accepted at the time to be such a departure from Lee's original design that "Lee" was removed from the nomenclature. The new rifle was always the "Enfield Rifle No4"
Everyone is going to have their own interpretation of this question - & it's academic anyway, really. One might argue that the humble little No8 is the last - it's still in service with cadet units.
If I might humbly disagree on one small point Brad (thread 13). Whether or not the No4 was or wasn't ever designated as a LEE or not, the fact remains that it contained the LEE bolt, the Enfield rifling and basic body mechanism. Additionally, it was always the RIFLE, .303" No4 Mk xyz. Neither Lee nor Enfield were in the title.
Is it right to call the No8 the last Lee Enfield. It's Lee bolt with a cock-on-opening is a significant departure from Lee's idea. As is the whole mechanism in the body. Just an pinion of course.
It's something that we did ponder over at work. But we do know that the L59 rifle is the last officially authorised incarnation of the Lee Enfield and Lee's basic design. That's why I think every serious collector should have one in his collection, especially now while they're cheap and readily available - and off licence in the UK too!
Personally I'd like to see a bit more input into this lively thread and thank everyone so far.
I picked up my L59 years ago at the Militaria fair down at Chatham Dockyard for around £230 I think, it's the only Deact I have and hangs up on the wall getting dusty. It was pretty battered when I got it so it got stripped, wood refinished, action re suncorited (that reminds me, I need to give that tin a shake and a turn). I refinished it exactly as it was when I got it, the stenciling of the DP letters was originaly with marker pen so I did the same although I'm sure it should be painted, which I'll have to get around to doing. Only anoying thing is, it's been deactivated further to UK specs, bolt head ground away at an angle and bar welded across the chamber preventing a drill round being chambered. I'm sure I read somewhere, probably on this forum, that some were converted to L59 spec at the factory and some were done at base workshops, be interesting to know where mine was done, if there's any kind of giveaway clue.
Also, here's a pic of my No8, currently sporting a SUSAT I had knocking around. it's on a one off mount, just for a bit of range fun..... I hasten to add, no No8 was hurt in the creation of this dogs breakfast, it's a "no gunsmith" type of mount so purely temporary, yes the eye relief is all wrong, the sight picture is terrible, kind of like using a ZF41, and as for cheek weld, forget it unless you have a chin like Jimmy Hill, even so I can shoot good groups with it. One more 50yd shoot though and I'm back to irons.
Your L59 was converted at a large Field/Command workshop. The DP status has now been accepted as truly deactivated as it was already deemed incapable of discharging a shot, bullet or any other like missile.
Er....... Shame about the No8!
I was under the impression we were looking at the rifle No 1 Mk III the last one off the production line which I gather is a bit like a chicken and egg question. And not withstanding the satellite places like good old India when they brought the tooling from England but a bona-fide example of the last unit assembled by Enfield. One would think that it would be known that the said rifle was going to be the last and some measures put in place to preserve the example.
Agreed the services did not give a toss whether it was the first or last as long as it functioned as designed, was within military spec to kill the enemy, but sometimes moves were afoot to navigate the system to collar an item for posterity, the SA80 is a different saga and will never ever get to the figures produced of the Lee Enfield No 1 Mk III rifle. Frankly I know naught of the SA80 saga and do not care about it, I have seen our Army reservists utilize the Steyr on our range @300m and from what I have seen given Australias topography I would want an SLR in 7.62 as the rifle served Aussie troops well and has a good deal of horsepower for persons hell bent on hurting the innocent people of this world.
All in all I guess the quest will be a never to be found example but imagine if you did own such a rifle considering the millions of them made over the years..........?
I agree Cinders.........& the question can mean different things to different readers. Do we mean the last design, or the last rifle of the Lee Enfield family to roll off the production line, or the last rifle to remain in service? There are no doubt additional ways of interpreting the question too.......it reminds me of the old chestnut of 'which is the better rifle, the Lee Enfield or the Mauser 98?!!' That one will roll on for as long as there are shooters! This debate, to my mind, is similar. But, as Peter insinuated above, it stimulates lively discussion.
Agreed, but I do have the last one.................a bit like "I'm Spartacus":lol:
Roger is right....... I have tried to keep this last-of-the-line going with healthy discussion. I'm only surprised that many others who are regular frequenters, authors or lurkers to the Lee Enfield part of the forum haven't come on board.
But just thinking about it, there was a little known variant of the Lee Enfield that numerically surpassed the L59A1. It was going to be the L60A1 but for technical and left-hand v right-hand reasons another rifle (the L1A1 variant) was allocated the L60 designation. That rifle eventually became the prototype/trial DP No1 rifle. The L59A2 which was abandoned.
Come on chaps.............
In terms of still in active use ....
The No4 MkI* and the CNo7 are technically still in active use in Canada which in my book means they are the "last" of the line.
However the replacement C-19 will soon be issued so the end is near.
Canadian Forces - Small Arms - Rifles - Index - CASR DND 101 - Visual Guide - Canadian American Strategic Review - Automatic Rifles - Automatic Carbines - Bolt-Action Rifles - C7A1 - C7A2 - C8 - C8A1 - C8 FTHB - C8A3 - Lee Enfield - Canadian Ranger Rifle - Canadian Forces Procurement - Defence Procurement - Department of National Defence - Procurement Priorities - Succession Planning
Peter this thread is a little outside my line though I do have a L42 serial 0C 0109 and more than a few No4s, No5s. and a single No1 Mk6. But if you want to talk about Lithgows I am sure I could help but in the mean time I am listening and learning about some models not available in Aussie.:thup:
Not sure the last Lee Enfield in service will ever come about but the No4 replacement in the wilds of Canada has been ongoing for......... well, it seems like forever!
I vaguely remember an L60A1 at Brecon and a pamphlet to go with it, or have I finally fell off my trolley. If so surely that was the last of the breed?
Last I seen (2007 Kugluktuk) most of those rifles were in a pretty sorry state, some with Pakistani replacement stocks and pieces. They still worked, but most of the Rangers had already supplemented their LE with a privately owned commercial rifle while the No.4 would generally be left to bang around in the packed load of the komatik. (locally made flat artic sled) When I patrolled the Inuvik region in 2004 they did still use them to cull their Reindeer herd. We were out on Sitidgi Lake and one Ranger simply dropped to the prone position, fired into the massive several thousand head herd, dropped 2 or 3. The herd spooked from the gunshots simply wheeled away en-masse and left the harvested animals on the ice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
The butchering was done on the spot and the meat had frozen solid as it was processed. Our tent group was given an entire rib section which I dressed into smaller pieces with our axe and machete from the sled kit, a bit macabre but they were the best tools available. It was then simmered with melted snow over a Coleman stove and seasoned with all of the soup mixes from our daily ration packs. The hot meal of "real" food was well received by the lads, and the Section Commander actually placed remarks in my report about my field cookery.
Sadly, many of these rifles will be very tired when they are replaced with the SAKO T3, and unless there are some very extreme changes in policy it is likely these rifles will be destroyed upon retirement.
You may well have seen an L60 at Brecon Gil. They were converted from downgraded L1's (and a few old solid butt type Argentinian FN's) in the mid 80's for 'arduous training' The criteria was that their value if lost, damaged or destroyed would be NIL. Additionally they were converted to a degree - and I forget the wording but I was involved in the spec with Tony...., er......, I forget his name now..... that they would pose no security risk, implications or problems or embarressing questions. They were totally inert. Like a mickey mouse watch. Looked good but useless when it came to telling the time.
It was an Enfield but not a LEE Enfield. The SA80 was the last(?) rifle MADE at Enfield. The number of the last SA80 produced was in the UN9?A 333xxx range.
Talking of SAKO rifles and SA80's, someone I knew had a single shot SA80 on his licence and it came back from renewal as a SAKO instead of SA8O. He phoned up to querie it and the girl on the other end explained that she couldn't find SA8O on her list of weapon names and so it kept being kicked off by the computer. However, SAKO was there.............. So that's what he got!
That's a common problem in our wonderful computer age Peter. I just went through the same thing last December with an examiner at BATFE Imports Branch. My client and I used too much detail on the import permit application and it confused the computer let alone the examiner who obviously doesn't know the muzzle from the buttplate of a firearm and really doesn't care either. I had to go over her head to get the job done. Fun, fun. Ho hum.
Ok, DP No4s aside, how about the Enforcer for the last shooting Enfield designed, I wonder if any are still in service with Police forces around the world.
First -- Great story about the culling. Keep up the colourful stories.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentryduty
Second -- Maybe some of the Canadian members of Milsurps should start lobbying the Canadian Rangers to allow the tired No. 4 Enfields to be retired in dignity by having them restored and a Commemoration plaque placed on them and sold at a premium as a piece of Canadian history to museums and bona fide collectors. This approach could take a worn out weapon and turn it into a return on investment as well as preserving history. If someone of deep insight were to get involved, the provenance and a few documented stories would be attached to each rifle. (Of course, a full FTR restoration and return to duty could also be suggested.)
It a noble idea, but I think the firearms community at large is mainly concerned with trying to save the Browning Hi-power from the smelters when they are eventually replaced in service. Not very many folks are chasing the L-E stockpile that I have heard about.
One saving grace, and this is pure speculation, is that the No4 rifles could be written off and left in the possession of the Ranger to whom they are currently issued. This could see the rifles enter into the private market. I do know from speaking with former Ranger embedded NCO's that No4's were often "written off" due to loss, breakage, mistreatment etc. but that was at least 20+ years ago, and knowing the supply system nowadays that may never happen again.
I wonder if someone could look them up, I would laugh if they were a Class "C" item, not accounted, disposable, and single-issue. In all likelihood they should be Class "A" like all other weapons and possibly ITAR controlled and classified for mandatory disposal when Not Serviceable (NS).
Remember, everything above is idle (wishful) speculation, I don't want to start rumours.
You were probably the one packing it in grease Gil and squirelled it away under the floor managers nose :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
Technically the argument about the "last enfield" (manufactured or in service?), is going to be between Indian No1Mk3*, 2A1 and the AIA "No4Mk4" family.
Indian No1Mk3• actions dated as late as 1980 have been reported.
2A1 actions were manufactured to about 1968.
Indian police and 2nd line (4th line???) military will have Lee Enfield rifles in service long after the Canadian Rangers have changed to Tikka rifles.
AIA actions are certainly "Lee", actions, whether they are "Enfield" rifled is up for debate.
I believe it's a matter of definition, the L42A1 was certainly the last Lee rifle issued to front line troops of any military...to 1985 or 1992 (whenever they were finally withdrawn).
I am a current serving Canadian Ranger serving with the Dawson Patrol in the Yukon Territory. My issued rifle is a 1955 Fazakerly, when it was issued it was as near mint as could be and still is other than some small dings in the wood from following me around countless miles, mostly in the winter time via snowmobile. We just finished a recent exercise and we again were told that our new rifles are to be issued starting at the end of this year ( Tikka's made by Colt Canada). There are many different patrols across northern Canada and the last rifles to be issued should be early 2017. This came from the top brass in charge of 1CRPG who was at Pelly Farm where over 120 Rangers assembled for a joint exercise. No new 303 ammo will be issued I was told (we often receive ammo to keep at home with the rifle for our own training purposes) IVI will not be doing another production run. The ammo left in the system will be used on exercises but not to be handed out to individual Rangers. We had a competition shoot while we were at Pelly Farm. It's a modest competition at 100 meters......2 five round groupings as practice then some minimal sight adjustment as needed, then 1 five round grouping, next 2 prone, 2 sitting, 2 kneeling, 2 standing, this all at the dreaded figure 11 target. Temperatures here in the winter can be extreme I have personally competed in temperatures as low as -40c. After 2 shots the bolt would not move and I mean no movement,.......a couple dribbles of gas line anti-freeze on the bolt and it cycles as if you were in the tropics, best to have no oil on moving parts at all things just tend to seize. I have seen numerous issued No4MK1*'s and No4MK2's, most are in very nice shape and the majority of the Rangers in the Yukon take care of there equipment,....I have heard in the extreme Northern regions they are more thought of as tools. The majority of issued rifles are Longbranch and no I have not seen a 1941 yet but have seen some early 1942's. I did see an EAL this time round. There are a bunch of us that also have been issued Fazakerly No4MK2's as I stated before. I have not seen any English made No4Mk1's and yes I always look, without being to intrusive.
The top brass at the exercise confirmed again that current serving Rangers would be able to keep their current issue service weapon as long as they have a current firearms license. I will believe it when it actually happens but I have heard the same story time and time again so hopefully there is some truth to it.
Hope this clears up any mis-understandings with some of the last Enfields in service.
Glad to hear some sense crept in and you are perhaps and hopefully given the opportunity to acquire a piece if firearms history at no doubt a modest cost paid to the Govt.
That is a very positive statement, hopefully it all pulls through, at least those rifles won't hit the smelter.Quote:
Originally Posted by bros
Same experiences here, keeping the C7 series running we would strip them dry, and use pencil lead graphite on the bearing surfaces, but even with this preparation we would need to manually cycle the bolt every hour to keep things from freezing up.Quote:
Originally Posted by bros
I hear that is beautiful country, my grandfather was posted in that region for a few years during the 1960's and aside from at the time not being able to get fresh eggs, he speaks fondly of his time there.Quote:
Originally Posted by bros
That's quite frigid. I make several trips to Yellowknife, North West Territories every year. Sometimes I'm there in -40 to -50C temperatures. People who've never been in this type of climate don't realize that the physics of materials change significantly at temperatures below -35C. For example, Air Canada's planes are not certified to land when the temperature is below -35C, they are locked out of the airport. Frostbite sets in on raw skin in 4-5 minutes. Metal cracks. The rubber wheels on my roll-aboard suitcase crack and flake off. The exhaust fumes of a vehicle freezes in mid-air, and can suffocate a car that follows too closely behind it. The only thing that seems to thrive in this horrible cold, strangely, are the big black ravens that scrounge garbage cans throughout the city.Quote:
Originally Posted by bros
So glad the old No.4s are not going to be scrapped for junk. Bros, think of collecting some of the adventure stories that go with these venerable weapons.