Doomed Long Branch Sniper Reborn

About a year ago I saw a forlorn Long Branch advertised on Gunbroker. No one wanted this bare bones skeleton. Just looking at it made me sad -- this was once a beautiful warrior that had been sporterized, her snout snipped by 2 inches, then scavenged by vultures. https://www.milsurps.com/vbpgimage.p...4&d=1455061126 https://www.milsurps.com/vbpgimage.p...5&d=1455061185
It was literally just a lock, butt stock, and barrel; nothing else; her pockets picked over and plucked clean down to her bare bones. But the price was cheap -- only $37 USD plus shipping. I don't normally buy cheap, but she was a rare Sniper heading fast to the dump heap for parts unless someone interceded to break the chain of parting-out. And the Scope serial number was still legible on the Butt, along with the evidence of screws where the cheek rest was once mounted.

What would you do with this poor soul? Do I restore her or just use the parts?
-Go for the restoration -- it's a rare gun! Might be expensive, but gallant glory deserves being reborn not a funeral.
Do I put a snout extension on the muzzle?
- No, that would be silly for a Sniper, so I found a barrel (No. 4 Mk2) that RW Snyder was selling.
Should I restore this myself?
- No, this calls for a pro. Brian Dick was the only person I'd think of in this country with the specialized skills. He studied under the guidance of Captain Laidler, and could give her the Armourer's professional attention that I couldn't -- insufficient knowledge, lack of expertise, inadequate tools, etc.

Here are the pics Brian sent me this weekend:
https://www.milsurps.com/vbpgimage.p...6&d=1455061268 https://www.milsurps.com/vbpgimage.p...7&d=1455061375

You can imagine my state of awe. Wow! Brian found all the old parts, replaced the barrel, tuned the trigger, phosphated everything, found some beautiful walnut stock, reached out to Roger Payne for the right scope pad and walnut cheek rest, received the right hand guards from BigDuke6, and SentryDuty donated a Sling Swivel (forthcoming) and brought everything up to MoD post war FTR standards. It's a work of art. It's a true global effort, sourcing from the UK and Canada to complete the project.

But how does she shoot? That's truly the hallmark of a Sniper. Would her Mk2 barrel be accurate?
Brian took her to the range and sent me a picture of this target:
https://www.milsurps.com/vbpgimage.p...8&d=1455061596
Now she's the perfect target shooter -- both a beauty and dead-on accurate -- a true thoroughbred.

Still a few things left to do, but I wanted to thank Brian, Roger, Geoff and Peter for the long years of hard work and their sharing of ideas, standards, and methods that culminates in a result that commands accolades.

(Brian, I know you are very modest and would never toot your own horn, so I hope you will forgive me for tooting yours -- your skills are rare -- thank you for your hard work and expertise.)

Robert

P.S. She looks so good she needs a name. How about "Electra" because she's been re-charged.

Very nice, well worth saving....... Kind of thing you could take home and show your Mum.

Brian nice Job, them hand Guards look familiar ?

Great restoration Brian. Good the old girl is back to her glory days!

Outstanding job! And a happy ending for a sporterized T

Great save and excellent refurb Brian :super:

Great save!! I commend you for taking the long and expensive road to bring her back to life!!

Brian B

I appreciate the compliments. Geoff gets credit for the handguards along with the others involved. It's not perfect but damned close! I found traces of Suncorite 259 left on the hulk so it got restored as it was in MoD service before "Bubba" got hold of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

I appreciate the compliments. Geoff gets credit for the handguards along with the others involved. It's not perfect but damned close! I found traces of Suncorite 259 left on the hulk so it got restored as it was in MoD service before "Bubba" got hold of it.

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Nice job.

I was thinking that it was awesome how you captured the (typical of Long Branch) torn up screw heads on the rear pad...then I realized that they were original :madsmile:

I was waiting for that L.E.! In retrospect, I probably should have changed them but decided to dress them as well as possible and not put the heat to it since it was secure and collimated perfectly with the new front pad. A little reminder of what Bubba can do with an ill fitting screwdriver! I never understood the desire to tighten screws that are soldered in tight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

I never understood the desire to tighten screws that are soldered in tight.

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First, Bubba has to know the screws were soldered in -- something I didn't know either -- that's why there is so much to learn.

Second, I don't think Bubba was trying to screw them in, I think he was trying to remove them to strip the rifle (this Bubba was a Butcher and Vulture too!). He got the front pad screws out then whacked the pad off into oblivion. Perhaps when he failed to remove the rear pad, he gave up and moved on to his next butcher job.

How this gun ever survived from its most minimal condition without ending up in someone's parts-bin is a mystery; it's like fate had destined this gun for a rebirth.

Perhaps we should have an annual award -- the Enfield Phoenix Award (rising from the ashes of doom) -- for the best example of reversing a Bubba Butcher job. I nominate the Brian Dick Team (including Roger Goeff, Darren, and Peter) as one of the 2016 award contenders!

Brian, don't beat yourself up over the rear pad screws; when Dave & I bought the batch of partially stripped 4T's back in the 90's some had both pads, some one & some neither, but ALL had had attempts by Piltdown 'gunsmiths' to remove the pads without warming up the solder! You can imagine what the screws looked like. On top of that some of the pads were damaged as when they didn't come off easily our heroes decided to try to smash them off with a hammer. We spent hours tapping dents back & dressing out bruises! In fact some were only fit for the scrap bin.....

You've done a great job on Seaspriter's rifle.

Thanks Roger. I won't! I may have erred on the cautious side not wanting to put the heat to the body behind the left side locking recess. These rifles are 70+ years old and the hardening was thin to start with so I thought why do it when it's still tight as is. That's my excuse anyhow!! At any rate, that's about the only thing left on this rifle that's original. Even the buttstock had been butchered beyond repair so I replaced it too. I was VERY lucky to find a wartime walnut Canadian forend that's as tight as it was when new and fitted perfectly with a bit of effort. The proof is in the pudding on the target. It should be as good as any original once a scope is properly fitted and it's wrung out on the range. Does anyone have a spare guard screw swivel to sell Robert? I ran out several years ago. It could use one of those.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

Does anyone have a spare guard screw swivel to sell Robert? I ran out several years ago. It could use one of those.

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It's funny you mention this, I have a mismatched No.4 Mk.1 that came with one of these and from what I can tell, may not have have any business having one. I will take a photo this evening. If no one has any spares kicking about, Robert will have mine without hesitation.

After viewing the No...dont' look. My EYES! thread you have restored my faith in humanity.
Quite inspirational !

Don't forget that there are two versions of the front trigger guard screw swivel. The shorter MILITARY one and the slightly longer COMMERCIAL one

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

The shorter MILITARY one and the slightly longer COMMERCIAL one

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Photos and measurements will be inbound within the next 3 hours.

So which variation do I have here?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...628e3251-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...f388026a-1.jpg

The thickness of the swivel "turret" is 0.473".

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...0f9ef4eb-1.jpg

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I think that will work well!

And match the scope mount screws :)


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Yep, that's the one. Send it to me if you like and I'll finish it to match for Robert.

It might be me but I think that loop sits too far into the trigger guard. It should protrude a bit more than that (photo 1) BUT foul on the cover loop that's missing on the rifle shown. Anone else think the same?

Looks like a standard military guard screw swivel to me Peter.

I just reviewed the MKL on the LB TP rifle and unless I am missing some very tiny detail, I *think* I have same one as that rifle, however without having the two side by side, I wouldn't bet my house on it. I would wager a fiver, but not my house.

I am with Peter. The screw is shorter than the ones I am used to seeing.


This is the one on my T.

Attachment 69783

I just looked at seven No.4T's and two L42's. Some look shorter than others when installed but all are correct military variants. I think the inletting depth of the trigger guard and sanded forends may cause the illusion. The commercial ones Peter refers to are much longer and usually marked around the periphery of the barrel that holds the swivel with a manufacturer name like Parker-Hale. The military ones are either unmarked or marked with a British "Broad Arrow". At any rate, it'll have to do as I don't have any spares. He's lucky to find one at all because they are scarce on the ground. Once I refinish it with phosphate and baked Suncorite 259, it'll be perfect.

I think I have an explanation, let me fact check and I will update.

---------- Post added at 01:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:48 PM ----------

Got it, the one on my rifle is installed upside down, with the flat part against the front of the guard plate and the bevel to the outside.

Just look:

Vincent:
https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....3&d=1455219979

Darren's improperly assembled parts gun with a questionable history:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...628e3251-1.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sentryduty

I think I have an explanation, let me fact check and I will update.

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Likely there is no split washer fitted under the swivel screw and it is bottomed out on the shaft.

The rifle this is coming off of, does suffer from really poor fitment of the action to the stock, it can rock fore and aft even though the action and stock serials match. I am nearly certain there is no washer present either.

This whole rifle was obtained as a restoration learner rifle for me, and it has been educational already I think, even though I've done nothing more than clean and check the headspace.

Ahhh, L.E. gets the detailed observation award again! I'd say he's correct since Darren told me the lock washer is missing. The swivel loop is installed correctly with the bevel to the outside.

Surely I must get a detailed knowledge award Brian - for noticing the 1/16" difference in height to start with! Incidentally, if your T is fitted with the longer commercial shank swivel screw it's a relatively simple job to machine the shoulder back a tad and cut the thread back to suit and end up with a shorter Military version.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

Ahhh, L.E. gets the detailed observation award again! I'd say he's correct since Darren told me the lock washer is missing. The swivel loop is installed correctly with the bevel to the outside.

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More "been there done that", than "detailed observation"...:banghead:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

Likely there is no split washer fitted under the swivel screw and it is bottomed out on the shaft.

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This is a common malady. On about 1/3 of my Enfield collection, either/or/and the split lock washer or collar were missing. It seems these got left out of someone's reassembly process on a regular basis.

Darren, check for both the lock washer and collar if there is play in that area. Also, the wood around the collar may have become worn eccentrically if the collar was missing or the trigger guard assembly was not tight.

Peter, you get the eagle eye award -- pretty good! (I have a bald eagle that perches in a Norfolk Island Pine across from the lagoon I live on. He can spot a small fish in the water a quarter of a mile away -- just amazing).

Peter, I'd have to hold you to a higher standard. You should have known that the washer was missing and pointed it out to the rest of we nimrods! ;)

When you've been stripping, assembling and range testing these No4's and 5's for a few years you get to realise just how important the collar and the fitting of it and lock washer really are

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

The swivel loop is installed correctly with the bevel to the outside.

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Are they not all beveled on both sides, like this?

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG

https://www.milsurps.com/content.php...)-Sniper-Rifle

Yep, I pulled a couple to examine and they are beveled on both sides. Some aren't as prominent as others. It's been a while since I examined one closely. I remember buying a hundred of them from Springfield Sporters many years ago for $3 each. All long sold now. I wish I had some back as they were all nos "Broad Arrow" marked military ones. I still have a couple of the Parker-Hale variants for the SMLE in my spares cabinet.

My butter knife keeps camming out, is there some trick to removing these?https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1c6e9486-1.jpg

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And now that I know everyone's blood pressure is up, here is the proper fitting wide, thick slot bit for the job:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ada0a011-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...e9ac4946-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5e1f4793-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...161b1f73-1.jpg

Measurements of the screw is 1.482" length. It was sunk into the trigger guard and bottomed out.

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I use the screwdriver head from a US M14 takedown tool to remove them. The size and thickness of the blade seems just right. You can also use a section of cleaning rod through the hole in the shaft of the takedown tool to get a better torque on the screw.

Or buy a proper set of screwdrivers from Brownells for all your firearms related tasks.

I have the full wheeler set and it has been an excellent toolkit.

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A dealer friend of mine is an ex toolmaker & found some old (ie good quality British or US steel) screw drivers with worn or damaged tips & then re-ground them specifically to suit the slots in the most commonly encountered screws used on the SMLE & LLE. They've been a godsend.

Super job on the restoration and the finish looks perfect, which must be the hardest part.

Thanks Rob. Degrease, bead blast, phosphate, prep, paint and bake. It's not that difficult, just very time consuming. Good for a few lifetimes now I'd think given proper care. Brian

Must have been the light in the photos Brian: I didn't click that it was Suncorited until I read your post, but looking now I see! ;)

This is truly inspirational!!

Beautiful rifle, congratulations!

eeek! the pics are gone!


as a long shot, do any of the australian contingent have a late 44 early 45 m47c in similar condition (and equivalent price range) they are willing to part with? :lol:

Missing Pics -- Don't know what happened. Sorry

-------------------------------------------
Feb 25 8:30 am EST
All fixed thanks to the wizardry of Doug Badger!
Thank You Doug

Mates, I'm quite illiterate when it comes to the intricacies of Sniper Scopes and how they got mated to Long Branch snipers.

It was my expectation when examining my 1944 Long Branch Sniper that I'd see a serial number on the wrist resembling "XXX-C," signifying a REL scope. Instead the serial number is "16539" as this photo indicates:
https://www.milsurps.com/vbpgimage.p...0&d=1457638140

Does this indicate a British scope? (i.e. Watson, HBM, Kershaw, or something else?)

If it's a British scope, how did it get on a Long Branch?

FWIW, on the Butt Stub that inserts into the Receiver Socket (3/4" above the scope serial number) is the serial number "39515"

Thanks for your help.

Robert

Looks to me like 4x numbers followed by C that have been overstamped 16(8)539 OR 3x numbers followed by C that have been overstamped with an additional figure 1 inserted to start.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seaspriter

...snip...If it's a British scope, how did it get on a Long Branch?

FWIW, on the Butt Stub that inserts into the Receiver Socket (3/4" above the scope serial number) is the serial number "39515"

...snip...

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typical LB "T" https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3/t8rdj9-1.jpg

This is the markings pattern which would be correct for your serial number.

Long Branch sniper rifles did not have a "secret" serial number stamped onto the butt stock under the butt socket lip.

That is an indication that your butt stock was originally fitted to British No4T serial # 39515 as they stamped the rifle serial number protected inside the butt socket and the scope serial in the open.

I suspect it was intended as a means of keeping the scopes matched with the rifles, as British scope brackets were originally not serial numbered to match the rifle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

That is an indication that your butt stock was originally fitted to British No4T serial # 39515 as they stamped the rifle serial number protected inside the butt socket and the scope serial in the open.

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Thanks LE. Your insight led me to use a very large magnifying glass on the underside of the wrist, where (almost too difficult to spot with the naked eye and too difficult to photograph, but still distinguishable) were the tell-tale marks:
SL
N
74
(Sykes Limited, walnut stock).
So, your assessment is probably quite right -- my guess is the Sniper was damaged in combat, and a new butt (and possibly another scope) fitted to the rifle (or possibly salvaged from another damaged British sniper).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seaspriter

Thanks LE. Your insight led me to use a very large magnifying glass on the underside of the wrist, where (almost too difficult to spot with the naked eye and too difficult to photograph, but still distinguishable) were the tell-tale marks:
SL
N
74
(Sykes Limited, walnut stock).
So, your assessment is probably quite right -- my guess is the Sniper was damaged in combat, and a new butt (and possibly another scope) fitted to the rifle (or possibly salvaged from another damaged British sniper).

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does it have a S51 on the bottom knuckle of the stock?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

does it have a S51 on the bottom knuckle of the stock?

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Darren, I looked for something that might be a remnant of S51 that might look like this: (taken from another post)

https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....3&d=1388856893

Unfortunately the stock had been scraped at that part of the knuckle when someone varnished the stock years ago; there is no evidence of the H*H marking.

Attachment 70841Attachment 70839Attachment 70840Just for the forum few years ago took my just acquired T to the range using the Milsurps 25 yard target to test the reworked draws that I had my stock maker Ken Davis repair.
As a short story this T when I received it from a now ex friend was sold to me in described excellent condition. And he did not miss me on the price either as all up with the postage and a super tough aluminium travel case it well it was extremely expensive for just a rifle.
Its first trip was a disaster as it barely held a 20 moa group at 100m with handloaded ammo on closer inspection and I was at fault just accepting the word of a so called friend the draws were flogged out. :red face:
To the extent the whole action rocked backwards and forwards I thought the trigger guard front screw was bottomed out until I took the stock off and behold what a mess.

After the repairs you can see the 3 targets and some interesting results were obtained;

Pic #1 - I had the rifle open sighted on a BR Rocksteady rest with a hard front pad and as can be seen the results were appalling at 25m

Pic #2 - Still open sighted but this time I ditched the rest and used the sling promising result

Pic #3 - Put the scope on it had a quick play the lower 3 shots and then dialed up and fired the 3 shot group very happy. :super:

Later on a friend fired the weapon on a target at 100m and obtained a 3 shot clover leaf group, now I am very happy with that result.

Re Lee Enfields thread 50. The rifle number stamped into the ledge of the butt was nothing more than a means of ensuring that THAT butt went back on THAT rifle. All the parts from the stripped rifle went into long boxes that were slid onto racks to await the rifle when it came back from the fitting-out shop. The butts used to slip or fall out of the boxes so they'd be numbered individually. There were still loads of these long boxes at the old factory, still with pencilled-on serial numbers on the end. They also used to stamp the rifle number into old ex P'14 butt marking discs and hang them on the box ends.

Superb restoration, another Enfield back from the dead.

Doing a little more research: Limpetmine's data base has this gun's sister (only 72 serial number digits difference) with a replacement Sniper Butt as well

1944 71L0297 1*(T) 4 NO SCOPE S51 BUTT WRIST# 17977

Perhaps there is an untold story that snipers in the European Theatre may have taken a rougher beating than we imagine.

In other posts, Peter Laidler and Brian Dick comment on how the front scope bracket pads were loose on many Snipers (despite the screws being soldered and often staked). Roger Payne comments on buying 140 snipers in semi-stripped gutted condition in the early 1990s -- presumably these must have had some damage and were being used as parts guns prior to his acquisition. Others speak of buying used pads from Numrich which had been stripped off Snipers. Still others report scopes selling for $5 in the 1960s.

Just speculating here, but I wonder if, once the Sniper teams in their ghillie suits got into the field of action (having left the No. 15 chests behind the lines), the Sniper rifles were subject to very heavy abuse (crawling around, climbing trees, inside farmhouse attics, etc.), hence a high damage rate (thus high attrition rate). (Certainly most seem to have been separated from their chests).

Of the ~28,000 Snipers produced in the UK and Canada, does anyone know or have a guess about the approximate "survival rate" of the war-time snipers? (We are reasonably clear that the Canadian sniper survival rate of reported guns from war-time production is under 9% and from post war production is about 22%. Based on this limited Canadian data, a post-war Sniper rifle has more than double the likelihood of surviving than a war-time sniper)

Awesome work - thanks for sharing.

My T is mentioned in Peters book as being in the trials for the front pads working loose thankfully the scope and rifle have remained a married couple to this day and I am glad I own a piece of history that is part of Peter and Ians book scope serial A K & S No. 16684.. Rifle F 38752