sa80 bayonet

hello to all , and especially the bayonet collectors amongst you!
years ago i started a baio collection that comprises today some 45 items that date back as from WW2 and refer to the rifles they were designed for: Lee Enfield N° 4, SAFN, Fal (and its clones), G3, Stoner.
My latest baio is a SA80 front line, and here i have a question to you: i notice that there are 2 versions: one with a square wirecutter sheath mount and another with a "hooked" version.
Does anyone know why these 2 versions exist? Since when?
Regards to all and hope to "enter" a new, interesting community!
Herman

There are MANY versions of the SA80 bayonet, scabbard and fittings Eagle. Maybe you should show a photo of you version

The early scabbard had a fixed cutting "anvil" these have a more "hooked" appearance, the later scabbards had a replaceable 3 sided cutting piece.
Please be aware the early "hook" type are already been reproduced......... ( faked )

Not all the SA80 bayonet scabbards have the attachments fitted such as the cutting block and saw. The reason according to various dealers but not independently confirmed to me is that only front line troops had the scabbard with all the attachments fitted and non front line/reserve troops were just issued with the bare scabbard with no attachments. The later 3 sided cutting insert fitted to some scabbards has the appearance of a carbide cutter insert as used on some lathe tools and milling cutters. Is that what it is, a carbide cutter insert, does any-one know, please?

Yep, three corner cutting tool tips (made by Sandvik ?). And by pure coincidence, that's what my lathe tools come tipped with! Front line troops get bells-and-whistles scabbards while arse-enders get the bare scabbards. The usual easy to tell method of who's-who is SUSAT rifle troops = bells and whistles scabbards. Arse-enders, poor mans iron sights and bare scabbards. That doctrine might have changed recently.

A display of all the variants would be interesting. We still had some bottle opener bayonets and serially numbered ones at Warminster.

Seems incredible to believe that these scabbard parts are already being faked......... amazing! I'm sure that one lot, made by some micky-mouse outfit from Wolverhampton were made to snap the tips off......

Some of the earliest bayonets were made at a factory in Ryde, on the Isle of Wight. The factory was called Trucast and was a subsidiary of Vickers.

The bayonets were made of wax and cast 6 at a time by investment casting (lost wax)

I used to have a couple of the wax ones, but they tended to break during house moves.

I expect there were other factories that also made them.

Incidentally Trucast also made the 'Spirit of Ecstasy' Rolls Royce bonnet ornament, false hips and Turbo charger hot end wheels.

Your wax ones probably lasted as long as the tips on the Wolverhampton cast ones Roy!

One of the Main reasons the 'Hooked' scabbards were dropped in favour of the replaceable insert types was. The 'T' pivot on the scabbard cutter section. Was thinner than the later versions. This was a weak area, And these 'T' posts fractured with alarming frequency!........

Does anyone have a lineage of SA80 bayonets and scabbards to show the progression?
There was a period when there were no spare catches or springs in the spares system. So if/when the spring or catch was defective (they would round off at the rear end so can be blasted off when firing - so said.......) the whole bayonet was written off! Strange but true. Corrected now of course.

The axis joint between the scabbard and the bayonet was a bit of a weak point as pointed out by Tankie. But if it was just wire or nails that the crunchie was cutting they were OK. But give them a cutting tool and guess what.......... Yep, railway lines, tree trunks and.......

Thanks a lot for all the info/help already received ... !
Here are my 3 pics of the baio a just bought as a non-issued official item; i also bought 2 different frogs with it (a green an dpm one, both made by Remploy); i noticd a 3rd type exists with 2 brass hooks as this seems to be the initial model.

PS - if i try to attach more than 1 file, it gives me an error ("failed to upload file")

See the x2 scale bayonet on the red shield that's part of my avatar thinggy......... I made that for the porchway or entrance of King Solomons Temple - as we used to call The Infantry Headquarters building. Also made a No5 bayonet and an L1A1 (much nicer.....) x2 scale at the same time, to see which one they wanted on the red Infantry shield. But when the Director of Infantry says that he prefers the SA80, that's what he gets!

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

King Solomons Temple

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Neat name...being the place all men bow down, and the center of all knowledge...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

See the x2 scale bayonet on the red shield that's part of my avatar thinggy......... I made that for the porchway or entrance of King Solomons Temple - as we used to call The Infantry Headquarters building. Also made a No5 bayonet and an L1A1 (much nicer.....) x2 scale at the same time, to see which one they wanted on the red Infantry shield. But when the Director of Infantry says that he prefers the SA80, that's what he gets!

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Hey Pete! When I was one of the School Armouer's there during my Time. There were indeed many unit wall Plaques hanging on the walls of 'The Temple'. I was walking past one day, on my way to the Museum, when I thought to myself. 'Ill just Pop in & have a look at them all'..........The main one as you know, is the Distinctive Red Shield with what USED to be. The L1A1 Bayonet on it.
I noticed then that 'The' Shield had a No.5 Bayonet mounted on it. And upon closer scrutiny, it was the VERY Scarce SINGLE screw gripped version!..........So Guess what?
I simply HAD to take that Shield off the wall, & put the 'Correct' Pattern Double Screw Version on in it's place!......;)

Sadly years later, I lost that rare Bayonet, along with practicaly everything I owned then. In a Divorce!......:(

In Malaya we had both sorts of bayonets. The irony was that we would also get both sorts of grips! So you'd get a pack of, say 10 single hole left grips and a pack of 2 hole right grips! The original single hole bayonets only had a single hole in the blade handle as I recall.

The 2x size No5 bayonet with wood grips and brass screws looked far better than the SA80 bayonet on the shield. But the man from Delmonte say NO! He General, me Captain.......

Is any-one able to post some pictures of SA80 Scabbards or their parts that are known to be fakes, please? Or failing that could any-one, please, give us an idea on how to spot fake SA80 scabbards or their parts? Thanks for any info.

The "hook" in the photo in post #10 is the type of fake I have seen. The poor surface finish with lots of file marks, and a blued finish not the usual matt black paint.

Would you think eagle1941's scabbard a fake?

Not the plastic scabbard ( there are loads of them out there) just the metal hook.

Here's a quick shot of three pieces I could easily get my hands on. I have two or three others that are not easily accessible, but I can't recall if they are different than these.

Piece on the left is the earliest model with a ramp stop and a fixed cutting edge. Middle example is later model with circular stop and three-sided indexable tungsten-carbide cutter. Example on the right has the earlier ramp stop with the indexable insert. This particular model was submitted by Royal Ordnance for the 1986 US XM9 bayonet trials. I do not know if this was ever a UK issued model.

Attachment 70089

I have the one in the middle. Have just bought two cloth frogs. and have been ensured they are military issue. How do I know other than the assurance from the seller there being so many fakes floating around?

The only fake SA80 bayonet item I have seen is the early hook attachment for the "original" scabbard.
I have a couple of early bayonets with a serial number and was looking for an early scabbard....... If I am looking so will others ..that is why the hook has been reproduced. And is probably easier to make than the later replaceable cutting bit type.

I can see no reason for reproducing frogs as there are soooo many available.

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Originally Posted by skiprat

I can see no reason for reproducing frogs as there are soooo many available.

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Bought a few last year on a car boot sale, bloke had bags of surplus gear..... some of the frogs were mint but plain green no camo etc.

It's probably worth mentioning for the benefit of any-one who doesn't know that Remploy Ltd who seem to have made all the Frogs which I have seen were a U.K. Government owned company set up in the late 1940s to provide employment for disabled people. This company closed it's doors a few years ago but in it's heyday I believe that it had several factories across the U.K.. The other military item that I have noted to have been made by them is a Roll for holding the cleaning kit for the GPMG.

And a lot of other webbing too including GPMG slings..........

AND Armoury Wooden Rifle racks for the SA80's...........:)

Those special and very expensive Armoury rack things were another of those left hand v right hand things that seemed to come from, well....., nobody really seemed to know! Responsible for a lot of peripheral damage to the rifles. Against much argument AGAINST them, they were just foisted on the units...... Again, at great expense!

The expense of the initial buy and then the expense of rebuilding the armouries to take them.

Units, Regiments and Brigade Commanders all suggested just lowering the original top rail by 14" or so (the rail used to accommodate/locate the barrel of the L1A1, Brens/L4's, GPMG's etc etc and No4's and No1's since the turn of the century), the new rifles could be stored vertically against the walls as before, taking up less space per rifle than the new racks. But it seems as though a commercial finger was in the pie. Better say no more......... BUT...... suggestions as to how to modify them came through 'others' who were told that as the design came from elsewwhere modifications were not permitted.

Anyone got a picture of one of the racks? Tankie, Skippy? There were hundreds surplus to requirements and joke was that someone mistook the order for instead of 1 per 10 rifles, it was 10 per 1 rifle!

At one unit under my wing at Bxxxxxx, the original TA centre still had their racks from when the centre was re-built in 1920. With large top rail cut-outs for (presumably) Lewis guns and also, alongside the rifle cut-outs were openings where each rifle bayonet and scabbard was held. These were still used for rifles and bayonets right up until the end of the L1A1's.

Pete, I used to own one of these horrible racks at one time. But along with a LOT of other stuff (Pretty much everything I owned then) it was 'Stolen' by my Ex Wife of the time. During the 'Protracted' Divorce Proceedings! :mad:

I never bothered replacing it. They DO come up now & again on 'That' Auction site however.

Made from 1/2" thick wooden Ply. They are strong, but a bit fiddily to insert the steel security Cross Bar at times! :madsmile:

The 'lock-up-ability' was another supposed feature of the SA80 rack frames. But as was pointed out, the huge lock went through a hollow flattened thin steel tube! And in any case, in the same Armouries, that were already secure to a coded/restricted standard, hundreds of SMG's were chained through an easily removable trigger guard! Daft or what? The rack things really were a farce. But you've got to smile

Sorry to go off at a tangent

I guess it makes sense Remploy Ltd making gun racks because they also, I believe, at one time made furniture and obviously the two things required similar skills to make. I remember that in the cadets the rifle bolts were removed from the live weapons and stored in a locked ammunition tin bolted to the floor and in a separate room to where the rifles were stored.

Remploy.......... made all the desks in my local junior school!