Hi All
Peter has tentatively ID'd the below object as an Energa grenade launcher for an LE. I have about 10 of these now and need to get it positively ID'd, so can I please ask anyone who has the above book to post a picture showing this item. I would be eternally grateful as it has proved a bugger to ID and this is the only 'real' lead I've ever had!
Kind regards
RRPG
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You can just search them on line...it doesn't quite look right though.
Hello partner … :)
You might want to try our Google CSE custom search engine located in the top right corner of the web site.. It only searches our site using Google techniques and can be quite efficient. For example, in your case, type in the words energa grenade launcher and see what happens ..
I checked and there are posts covering that topic… ;)
Regards,
Doug
I have done and found nothing, but Peter has suggested the above book has the picture I am looking for, hence the post!
Here, try this then... https://www.milsurps.com/google.php?...sa.x=6&sa.y=10
Thanks Jim, I did but couldn't find anything like it.
Perhaps I need to clarify a little more. Peter Laidler thought he had seen a picture of the above item in the Skennerton book. Not owning a copy, I just needed someone to see if they can see it and, if they can, to post a picture of what it is. Reason for posting here is I have seen hundreds of pics of the 'normal' Energa launcher for the LE, but it isn't the same. It could well be a very early model or perhaps for attaching the launcher to a No 1 LE rather than a No 4.
:) :)
Now look here chaps, all he wants to see is a lifted copy of the photo on page 270 of The Lee Enfield story.............. Someone please......... Not an Energa discharger as I thought but something else. Pulling teeth or what!
Here is a copy of the photo from page 270 of "The British Service Lee".
Many thanks Spike. That's the thinggy I was thinking of. (The SMLE is ready to be collected.........)
Many thanks Spike. I will need to broaden my search then as that isn't it. Many thanks for the suggestion though Peter.
Out of interest, I did email Ian Skennerton and he didn't recognise it as anything to do with an LE. I have discovered some markings on the object though, (after some more cleaning), and will post pics of these shortly.
A little context might help. Looks like they were dug up.
Certainly Smellymarkfive - This was recovered from a British army dump site. I have been digging this site, (with landowners permission of course), for more than 5 years and one of these first appeared a couple of years ago. Since then I have had lots more, most beyond saving, but a few are 'intact'. They always come from within the dump layer containing recognisable WW2 relics so it will be from WW2 or earlier. The dump is full of weapon and tripod parts from numerous weapons used by the British, (LE, Sten, Bren, Vickers, Browning M1917, Boys.....), along with armourer tools as well.
So, this could be part of any of these items but is certainly military in origin. Every single item found in this dump is just that, so we know it isn't just some random crap. Along with the number of these recovered, it is obvious it has something to do with a weapon, but what......is the question!
The relic itself is roughly four inches long by 2 inches wide so seems far too big to fit inside a rifle, but could feasibly be from within a larger calibre weapon or MG.
I thought for a short while it maybe a gauge square, but I don't know enough about armourers tools to try and track it down.
More pictures below. Markings read .......
6163511B
C.F.S. Co.
LH
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The grenade launcher was a good guess though wasn't it? That part number reminds me of some of the US kit with similar numbers we used to get for the .30 and .50 Brownings. That Hexagonal recess in the tube part is so that the tube part can be adjusted for depth when it's fitted to whatever it fits onto.
I think you are unearthing a what we used to call an RSSD. That is a Returned Stores Sub Depot. That's where all the crap returned to Ordnance gets sorted into various categories that they used to call '.....all the S's' for salvage, scrap, sale and store. In truth, the only stuff that ever went back into store were things that were still sealed and packaged with identifiable part numbers.
When the place was ready for closure they just put it all on the burn ground, burned it and turned it in. There were various other methods and the most common was just dump it at sea or sell HUGE lots of things, especially vehicles, off to the locals for a song. I saw Auster aeroplanes used for fire practice........
Yes it was Peter. Now I'm thinking more along the lines of an armourers tool.............
Is it part of the Lewis gun cleaning kit?
---------- Post added at 07:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:40 AM ----------
There's something very similar for sale on the BRP site called a vickers cleaning plug. They have longer handles but are the ones you have broken?
I have been running the ID marks through google in various iterations with no matches.
I see a number that is either 8163511B or 8163511D or 8163911B or 8163511D
There is C.F.S. CO.
And does one appear to have a shallow stamping of L.H. in skinny letters, could that indicate there is a Left and Right hand to a pair of these?
The central round part with the hexagonal centre is retained in the main block by a taper pin that you can see reasonably clearly in pictures 1,2 and not so clearly in photo 4. From photo 1 it would appear that the recessed block protruding to the rear is allowed to articulate on a pin (just visible and rusty in photoi 2. I bet this pinned block is spring loaded so that it opens up slightly and closes over 'something'. Then the hexagonal nozzle bit is adjusted to tighten it all up.
Obviously designed by a high ranking committee. It's one of those tools, similar to a Sterling SMG or No4 rifle zeroing tool or better still, the extractor removal tool on the L1A1 rifle. Part of a kit that all Armourers learn how to use and then promptly forget about because it's total crap! When a small hammer, a brass drift and 6 months experience enable you to do the job quicker and better.
But a good thread. Keep it up RPG!
Slight digression, whats the earliest use of hex head screws that anyone knows of on Military firearms or accoutrements. As in official not fitted by gunsmith.
TIA
The patent on hex drive appears to be 1910, so that is of little help, but their use on firearms is something I do not know.
Flat heads seemed to have been the gunsmithing standard for a very long time.
Sterling SMG - early 50's is the first use that I recognise from our small arms. Does anyone disagree that the photo does show a hexagonal allen key recess? We had a little joke, saying that the Military should have stopped using allen keys the moment Leatherman/Gerber started putting them on their utility knives!
Comedy gold! And a truth too, you haven't seen fury until you've seen a Sergeant discover a Elcan C79 sight disassembled on a troop's bed in the shacks. (barracks)Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I agree, the photo does look like a pair of hex key heads.
Thanks for all the replies guys. I feel like we might be getting closer!!
Smellymakrfive - Do you mean a clearing plug? If so, it isn't one of those with bits corroded off. I have one and it is way too big and doesn't match. I thought, like you, maybe something Lewis.......but can't find pics of anything like it.
Sentryduty - Many thanks for looking. However, the first number is almost certainly a 6, not an 8. :) :)
Peter - I agree......probably an armourers tool that never left the depot and probably never even got used. If only I could be sure!
Does that arm swing out and back on the pin? Spring loaded? Does the hex tube part rotate within the main block?
Talking of the crunchies and their ability to take anything apart....... They bring stuff back that's missing bits and clearly been tampered with, assembled back to front and........ Then they just tell the Arms storeman that '.........nuffink to do with me....., I got it like this....'
So the hex piece is a hollow tube with male threads on the outside, that suggest that it was meant to thread into something with female threads or that there was a nut or another part that would connect to it. The hollow tube could mean something was meant to pass through the item when installed, a rod, another tool, a projectile, gas, light?
The hex head suggests that a tool was needed to obtain a certain torque or tightness value for installation or removal.
The small arm was able to swing on the axis pin with a 180 degree sweep.
The small arm has a triangle pointed end as opposed to a squared, or round finish, suggests it played a role in the item's use.
How big are these items?
---------- Post added at 04:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:27 PM ----------
The one on the right of this photo has a cross pin that appears to stake the hex head into a fixed orientation that would prevent it from rotating independent of the body of the item.
https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....2&d=1455537288
I think the item would thread into something, and then the "arm" would be flipped over 180 degrees to act as a lever lock or mechanical stop to prevent the item from backing out.
Will measuring the threads throw any light on it?
Is it a thread or ribbed....., say, to grip onto a rubber hose? What about part of an enema machine for use in the doctors when feeling a bit, er....., bunged-up!!!!!!!
My brains bunged up thinking about this one. Maybe it was just ribbed for pleasure?
It's a thread. Measurements are 4 3/4 inches from tip to tip, 2 1/4 inches wide.
The 'arm' certainly would have originally swung through 180 degrees nd the cam inside the arm would have rotated on the rod through its centre.
:)
RRPG actually knows that it's a blank firing attachment for a Mk6 2-PDR Lightweight Underground Trench Mortar but is enjoying himself too much playing guess what this is with the forum members.
Of that I am nearly sure. :lol:
:o :o :o
***Goes to look very VERY quickly....***
Still chasing this rabbit, been reviewing photos of Machine guns, tool rolls, exploded diagrams, sustained fire kits, most small arms pieces, not anything that looks even remotely like this.
On the bright side, I can now probably draw a Vickers gun blueprint from memory.
I have looked over all of the common suspects, the Vickers, Maxim, Bren, Besa, Lewis, Thompson, Lanchester, and including some German stuff that came up in my search runs.
Next I will probably start looking over recoiless rifles and mortars and their EIS.
It's a puzzle alright.
Thanks for the searching Sentryduty. I've been doing the same and drawn a complete blank. This leads me to think it is indeed what Peter thinks it is......a long forgotten armourer's tool that didn't do the job properly and as rarely used, and completely forgotten.......
It could just be imagination, but the one marking on the hex head looks like it could have once said "9MM".
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Completely outside of the box. There was a Chicago Flexible Shaft Company (C.F.S. Co) that produced flexible shafts in the period late 1800's to mid 1900's before the company became Sunbeam and started making toasters. These were used in shearing sheds for overhead sheep shearing clippers. If you look at page 12 of the enclosed web site you will see a right angled device that transfers mechanical power from horizontal to vertical Chicago Flexible Shaft Co. : manufacturers of flexible ... 1920. - Full View | HathiTrust Digital Library | HathiTrust Digital Library
Are we looking at a version of this device?
I thought yesterday something to do with compressed air like in a garage. How were guns electro engraved?
Engraving chisels can be either electric or compressed air. Or maybe there was a tattoo parlor near by.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1967
How about the screw that holds the foresight of the M1 Rifle (Garand)? Or have mine been modified?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Guys, you are diverging too far!! This is definitely military. Every single item from this site has turned out to be military in the end................ EVERYTHING.
OK but military 'shops' still need tools like engravers for re-doing serial numbers. Look at the difference between stamped No1 rifles and engraved No4 rifles. so does anyone know of any pneumatic or electric hose connected tools in the armorers workshop? Think of all the No4 Mk 1/2s and Mk 1/3s they all needed re-marking.
I know what you mean smelly, but don't forget I have found around 20 of these things, and others have been found by other diggers at the site, bringing the tally close to 60 of these things. You may have needed to engrave things, but would they really need this many?
I remember my mum smacking me round the back of the head saying I didn't need my hands to look, but it certainly helps (the hands not the smacking). Have you found any that are still workable? Whatever it screws into has to be thin because of the space between the threads and that main block thingy.
I've got a sneaky feeling someone out there is laughing at us and rolling around on the floor. If you are please put me out of my misery. WHAT IS IT?????
I have the same feeling!! Waiting on Ian Skennerton and a couple of his friends to get back to me. Hopefully they will have the/an answer :)
Believe me RPG, from my experience here, if the forumers on this site ain't identified it yet, then guess what chance those outside the UK and US Military system have........... Yep, slim and none! But like I always say, I stand to be corrected.
I agree Peter. It is rare that a WW2 relic beats me, so you can imagine how frustrated this is making me! Only damn things in my museum that I can't ID!
Why don't we all agree to call it something obviously incorrect, and then offer it for sale as such? You will either sell them all, or someone who knows what they are will contact you with an indignant email, outlining every reason why we are wrong, and you might even find out what they think your of family and breeding free of charge!
It's a low investment high return gamble, what could possibly go wrong?
What a good idea Sentryduty. I might just do that at a ludicrous price as well to generate even more vitriol :) :)
It is getting more and more obvious that this item is so bloody rare/unusual that it is not going to get IDd any time soon........ DAMMIT ! BLOODY THING!
How many of these compared to other objects. Their amount can only be understood when compared to other finds. There may be 60 which sounds a lot, but if you're finding 100s of other things then it sounds less. Also is it found in association with other things, and what are their frequencies? Rubbish piles tend to build up over time and trying to find the sequence of deposition can be very informative about the objects in each event. That's the difference between archaeology and just digging stuff up, and how just digging stuff up can obliterate useful information. Having done both though, just digging stuff up is a bit more fun. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is the devil might be in the detail and it may be useful to properly excavate, you might find some of the logic to why certain things were dumped at different times.Quote:
Originally Posted by RRPG
Smellymarkfive - I totally understand. I am always keen to note the context in which a find is recovered as, like you, I realise that this can have as great an impact on identification as anything else. These items are always found in what we like to call the 'WW2 Layer', a layer of dump that holds relics that were most prevalent in their use in WW2. However, we also realise that some of these finds from this layer may have been used in an earlier context. What we know for sure is that they can appear anywhere in any of the WW2 layers, in among any other relics. However, the commonest location I have found them is in among webbing and sling buckles. This may not help as, within this 'buckle' layer, we also find items such as bakelite spike bayonet scabbards, connectors for condenser pipes for Vickers and Browning MGs, as well as Vickers and Browning cloth belt starter tabs.
Upshot of all this is, yes context makes a difference, but this site is so large and diverse, all we can say for sure is that it was probably used at some point during or pre WW2.
Sounds like a pretty interesting site to poke around in. so whatt was the purpose of the dump, is it for obsolete or beyond repair equipment? Maybe it was for both. What type of facility was it associated with? I sometimes wonder about what "the war effort" really means in scale and scope, especially in terms of things being manufactured and recycled in the millions. There's so much activity from that period that has been forgotten or just plain ignored while the media focus on battles and soldiers. I'm sure you'll get to the bottom of it eventually. You might be able to find someone local that worked or was stationed there?