No4 Rifle WW2 metal finish?

Hello!

I am currently working on restoring a 1943 Savage No4mk1* - it is a barreled action that I will be putting New NOS wood onto. My concern is that once i put NOS hardware and furniture on the rifle, it might look a little strange with the receiver looking quite worn. Also the hardware i got does not match the grey parkerized receiver...just nitpicks but leads me to my main question:

I have heard that units in the second world war would apply "blackening" to rifles. From what I have heard this is not a factory applied finish, but something that goes over it. I have no idea what this finish is, whether it is blueing, paint (suncorite?), or some other process. I figure this might be my way of getting a rifle with metal that looks good and colour matching while still being historically accurate.

Would anybody know what this "blackening" process was?

thanks!

You're talking about Suncorite paint, which was applied over bluing.

thanks for clearing things up for me! I have heard that suncorite is a postwar thing, ive also heard the opposite.

Sunkorite was a mid war process. But to be done properly, it was applied over a bead blasted or tumbled sinish, phosphated and then painted with over cured and hardened sunkorite paint.

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Originally Posted by Schnitzelmahn

I am currently working on restoring a 1943 Savage No4mk1*

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I have a 1944 Savage No4Mk1* with its original finish -- which was phosphated (Parkerized). As this was a battle gun, and there are places where the finish has worn very thin. I suspect one thing that may have been done is to apply cold black over worn areas, which can be done easily in the field.

When I was bringing my father's No4 Mk1/2 (F) back to configuration I found that I had two options - one was to send to Brian Dick for suncrolite application (he had a little left over - not sure about now), or using Brownell's Aluma-Hyde. The suncrolite, plus shipping the rifle, etc. was a little more than I was wanting to pay, having just purchased all the wood, hardware, etc. from him. I decided to try the Aluma-Hyde - in my opinion it went on easy, looks absolutely great, and looks almost authentic.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._zpsf5c7-1.jpg

alright thanks for the input, the gun already has a parkerized (phosphate?) finish, so my guess is that i can apply my modern "suncorite" stand in over top of that once I've properly cleaned and degreased it?

I think that if it was mine I would just leave the metalwork as it is and just replace the wood. Obviously, once you have refinished the metalwork you can't put it back to how it was if you decide you don't like the result. I have replaced the wood on a couple of Le-enfields and left the metalwork as it is. There are scratches and dings to the finish but that's what you would expect on a rifle more than 70 years old.

Savage rifles were never Parkerized, (phosphated), at the factory. The receiver bodies were sandblasted and all the metal parts were blued using the Dulite process, much the same as at the S.A.L. Long Branch factory except the Canadians didn't sandblast the receiver bodies. The sand blasted surface gives a Parkerized look but it's just bluing and no where near as durable as Parkerizing. Long Branch switched to Parkerizing at some point in 1950 in the 93LXXXX serial number range. All of their factory weapons were Parkerized from then on including wartime rifles that went through rebuild/FTR. You'll still see a mix of blued and Parkerized barrel bands and other small parts throughout production as they used the parts on hand during assembly. The MoD started phosphating, painting with Suncorite 259 and baking in 1944. The Sten Mk.5 SMG was the first weapon to be produced new at the factory with the new rustproof finish if memory serves and it became the standard finish on British weapons up until it was finally declared obsolete 4-5 years ago. Quite a service life! It's the ultimate rustproof finish and tough as nails.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

I think that if it was mine I would just leave the metalwork as it is and just replace the wood

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Feel as though the worn metal work isn't going to match my NOS stock set and hardware (which is black, not sure the finish) My goal with the project is to restore the rifle as it would have looked going into WW2 when it would have seen battle.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

Savage rifles were never Parkerized, (phosphated), at the factory

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

The MoD started phosphating, painting with Suncorite 259 and baking in 1944

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Good to know - would you by any chance know when in 1944 this practice was adpoted? Would rifles used in normandy have been finished with suncorite? I guess given this date rifles in the Italian campaign would not have been finished this way?


So the question remains since suncorite is toxic and hard to get, what modern alternative should I use? Ive heard of BBQ paint, the Brownells spray, car paint, etc. Any input on which offers the best protection while still not requiring too much special equipment to apply?

I think you can get the actual Suncorite...there's a few here that will know for sure. Many use a bake on type black though.

at the risk of being skewered, I had a old win 94 that my father had done a bad reblue job. there was pitting and rust. The gunsmith asked if it was a barn find when I brought it in. To make a long story short, I went with a dark blue colored cerakote. The gun had no real value in its current state and I wanted my kids to enjoy it in the future. It turned out great and not at all an eyesore. It has been three years and it looks as good as the first day.

Does this Suncorite finish have the appearance of what I would describe as a black textured finish?

I actually would consider it somewhat smooth with almost a "plastic" feel or texture in my experience.

I have 2 LE rifles that appear to have it applied, the 1943 No4 in my thread, a 1953 FTR 1908 No1 MkI*** my two other LE rifles have 1918 No1 smooth blued metal and 1944 No4 grey parkerized/phosphate which is a rough texture.

It's smooth as Darren says. The paint has to be stirred thoroughly and when baked it comes out flat black which turns to a satin or semigloss black when brushed or wiped down with grease or oil.

Isnt it an emamel or at least feel like it?

It's not enamel. The ingredients consist of Xylene Butanol-norm. Very toxic stuff.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

It's not enamel. The ingredients consist of Xylene Butanol-norm. Very toxic stuff.

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But it does make a fine firearms finish, durable for sure.

Stronger than comparable powder coat too, it can resist brake cleaner without softening.

So the black textured finish found on some Sterling S.M.G.s is something other than Suncorite then?

That off-grey, "hammertone" finishing like on the police carbine Sterlings?

I do not know what that is, but I have seen it replicated in powdercoat in modern firearms, Remington 870 Tactical shotguns come to mind. In that application it is a poor finish, chips easily, and at the price point deplorable performance.

I would described it as black but others may call off grey; it is surprising how many shades of black there are.

of course, like this?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ortstamp-1.jpg

Yes that's it.

ok - interesting information on suncorite. Somebody has told me that Canadian units did not apply suncorite to the rifles they were issued, while the brits did. can anybody testify to the validity of this?

As such perhaps I should consider getting my receiver re-blued, perhaps touch the marks up with cold blue? Again, the rifle is a 1943 savage, I believe it is blued. What route do you folks suggest?

My 1943 No4 Long-branch is blued rather than painted if that is any help.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

blued rather than painted

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That wasn't a refinish was it? By chance?

Bluing on a 1943 Long Branch is correct. CAL Long Branch refinished weapons with a lovely manganese phosphate/Parkerizing during their FTR programs after 1950. One of my favorites is a nicely Parkerized 1942 LB with Canadian ownership marks. The Canadians didn't paint/bake their weapons with Suncorite 259.

We refinished lots with bead blast and blue, and it always came out perfect. Just wondering...

That crackle black finish on Sterling guns was a special paint made by TRIMITE. It went on cold and cracked in the oven as two of the chemicals reacted to the heat. To be honest, it was only any good over a phosphate finish - as Sterling did it. Exactly the same paint was used as a finish on MGB and GT dashboards if you MG owners recognise it. Alas, the cheapo MG finish went straight on top of as-pressed mild steel and would/could chip as soon as you looked at it. Or as soon as you pulled an instrument out of the dashboard.

The Sterling guns went through the spray booths on wood formers because the trimite crackle paint built up a thick layer once it had reacted/set/crackled and could impede the fit of the reciprocating breech block.

Just thought I'd mention this useless bit of info being a lazy Sunday morning here in Oxfordshire!

The most durable DYI finish I have found so far is powder coat over phosphate.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...er20Coat-1.jpg

Above is wrinkle powder coat over phosphate. It’s the same stuff they use on Harley-Davidson motorcycles.

Makes you realise just how attractive those Sterling SMG's were......, if there is such a thing as an attractive SMG!

My wife thinks I find the Mk4 attractive. She calls it “the other woman.”

India’s proposed replacement for their SAF Carbine A1 (Sterling Mk4)…. I hope it shoots better than it looks.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../02/msmc-1.jpg

That is... something! Keep an eye out, that thing will certainly show up in some sci-fi, dystopian film as a prop gun.

India, don't ever change!

Ok thanks for all the info, looks like I will fix the bluing on the gun, probably get somebody to do a proper hot bluing for me, unless cold blue is a viable option - ive heard it is not very consistent but can work for cleaning up areas that have had the finish worn off, which is the case with my rifle.
doing what I should probably have done a lot earlier, here are some pics of my project:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../CJ15kr8-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../RySyiJX-1.jpg

Now the real reason I want to redo the finish - my hardware is brand new and very dark while my barrel & receiver are not....
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../6KkqAg7-1.jpg

I don't know if my Long Branch has had a full F.T.R. but I suspect not and it is in lovely used condition. If you decide to get some-one to re-blue your No4 for you be careful to tell them that you want a dull finish to the blue and not a modern bright shiny blue finish. The blueing on my Long Branch is fairly dull as I believe is generally correct for the time on most weapons. When I have needed to achieve a dull blue on small parts that I have re-blued at home I usually just phosphate the part then blue on top without polishing. Is any-one else able to provide any further details on the correct type of blueing, please?


I like the wrinkle finish black paint as applied to Sterlings and have noticed it, occasionally, on other non-military applications so I suspected that it was commercially available as Peter has said.

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Originally Posted by Vincent

India’s proposed replacement for their SAF Carbine

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Nice...looks very...?