What to do with damaged leather items

I picked up what I believe to be a WWI Luger holster the other day that has some damage. It is a little dried out and the closing strap is torn completely off at the last hole. I have photos posted in the "Other Military Service Pistols and Revolvers' thread.

Looking around the net, I found several sources that note the strap has been replaced on various holsters they are selling so it is done.

I'm not looking to sell this but to use it in my displays but I don't want to destroy it's collectability if it has any by repairing it. My personal preference would be repaired. I'd also like to treat the leather so it doesn't get worse. It is pliable for the most part.

One other area is the small loop next to the clasp. That is very close to tearing in half, any way to stabilize it?

You are asking some tough to answer questions. Post photos to help us answer you questions accurately. Quite frankly, the best thing to do is nothing - leave it as it is.

Already posted photos on the other thread.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=55753

As far as treating/preserving the leather I have had great success (short term anyway) with anhydrous lanolin slings & holsters. My thinking as to long term is that being a natural componet of sheep skin it has to be better than the chemicaled up commercial treatments. I suppose the long term results will be accessed by my heirs.

Good eye BTW.

This stuff came highly recommended to me by a lady at the last gun show I was at. She cleaned up a pair of slings with it and they did turn out very nice. I haven't bought any yet, nor would I put it on the holster unless the experts say it isn't going to hurt it.

http://www.urad.com/product.cfm?product=4

For Leather Preservation, in a double boiler, I mix a combination of 30-40% pure neats foot oil, 30-40% lanolin, and 30-40% beeswax (an old formula handed down to me from my grandmother). Go heavier on the oil & lanolin if the leather is really dry, heavier on the wax for leather in good condition.

For replacing the broken belt, the simplest way is very carefully undercut the threads of the old stub, find a leather belt of the same width (cut it more narrow if you can't find the right width) and color, and sew on the new belt end. You will need to learn a bit about saddle stitching. Match the threaded holes in the new belt with the old holes in the holster. You make the holes with a leather awl. Sew with waxed thread, which can be purchased at Michaels.

If your looking to do the repairs yourself. I get my stuff here.
The sewing awl you'll need is the first item in the Stitching and Lacing section.
Tandy Leather | Leathercraft and Leather Craft Supplies

I have modified a couple of modern leather holsters using seasprinters method. Harbor Freight stores have the sewing awl. Not so difficult. Having seen some of your other work. No problem.

I am pretty confident I could do the repairs, I have done leather work before. It's just a matter of whether I should or not. I'm leaning toward it because In researching these, I've encountered quite a few that had the strap replaced. And it would seem as this is most likely the area most likely to fail they were replaced while in active service. So, in restoring it, not being a military repair, I know it would be an issue for some collectors. At the same time, I don't see a lot of individuals that would really be interested in it without a functional strap. My daughter already has the tools so I wouldn't even have to buy them. She probably has the leather too although I'll have to check. At today's gun show, I only found one, it had been dyed black which I believe was a post war thing and it had it's strap replaced and not even the original type strap. They went from the original straight strap to the angled strap like mine. The original thread holes were still there and pretty obvious. Asking price $325.00.

I have also come to the conclusion (probably not surprisingly to those that know me here) that I now need to find a Luger to put in it. Priced them on Gunbroker and while pretty far out there, if I stop buying the rifles every other month, I could afford one before the year is out. I even discussed that with the wife and encountered no objections, just polite interest which is another positive. Refraining from new purchases is the difficult part. For while there aren't many out there I'm actively seeking, these other "interesting" ones seem to fall into my lap. Already have my eyes on one at the next auction from hell although I rarely win the bidding wars there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I am pretty confident I could do the repairs, I have done leather work before. It's just a matter of whether I should or not. I'm leaning toward it because In researching these, I've encountered quite a few that had the strap replaced

---

Go for the repair. Generally speaking, in the world of Preservation versus Restoration, Preserve it if it has a provenance (i.e. it belonged to Rommel, etc.); Restore it to functional condition if it is ordinary/common (what good is a dysfunctional antique?)

Refrain from rifles and buy a good Luger to fit the holster (what good is an empty holster -- it's like an empty gas tank).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I picked up what I believe to be a WWI Luger holster the other day that has some damage. It is a little dried out and the closing strap is torn completely off at the last hole. I have photos posted in the "Other Military Service Pistols and Revolvers' thread.

Looking around the net, I found several sources that note the strap has been replaced on various holsters they are selling so it is done.

I'm not looking to sell this but to use it in my displays but I don't want to destroy it's collectability if it has any by repairing it. My personal preference would be repaired. I'd also like to treat the leather so it doesn't get worse. It is pliable for the most part.

One other area is the small loop next to the clasp. That is very close to tearing in half, any way to stabilize it?

---

If you feel the need, replace the strap. Use the correct weight leather and sew in the same fashion as was originally done using the correct natural thread. You may feel you can do it, but if you are in the least bit uncertain, have someone experienced do it.

The best thing to do for an historical item made of leather is nothing. Keep it out of direct sunlight, store it in an environment with stable humidity and temperature, and handle it as little as possible. That is what historical preservationists do. However, you are not at that level and the item you are working on is not rare.... yet. So, as far as what to use to restore the oils the holster naturally had when new, use pure neatsfoot oil or lanolin, they will do the job. Clean the leather first and then apply a light coat of oil, no more, it doesn't need it. Keep in mind that the oil will darken the leather somewhat but not too much. Do not use any of the modern goops said to be used by museums to preserve their collections, as I said above, museums with qualified preservationists do not use anything, they store the items properly to stop the deterioration the best they can, that is all.

Something else to keep in mind, as far as getting a Luger for the holster be sure that there is no oil whatsoever on the Luger if you intend to put it in the holster. The worst thing for leather - even worse than being displayed in direct sunlight - is petroleum. Keep your properly oiled Luger away from the holster unless you wipe it completely dry before putting it in the holster.

Assuming that you have the broken bit of leather strap and that you don't actually wish to use the holster, for perhaps re-enacting, I would first try gluing the broken strap back together with Super Glue. If this worked I would then treat the leather with leather treatment. Don't try it the other way round or the glue won't work. I have found that Super Glue works remarkably well for leather repairs provided you don't wish to rough handle the item. I used this method on my WW2 German helmet chin strap which had broken in several places and I wanted to retain the original strap and as I am not planning to start wearing it the repair should last. Please take sensible safety precautions when using super glue as it is excellent at sticking yourself to the thing that you are trying to repair.


I find that Neatsfoot based leather treatments (available from Saddlers) are excellent for reviving old leather but with this type of treatment I normally only apply to the inside surface of the leather. This treatment is used for horse tact. I then follow up a few days later with treatments intended for the outer surfaces of leather.

To avoid gluing the item to yourself, use rubber cement. It is flexible when dry and holds leather better than any other adhesive. First skive the two pieces to be joined, apply the glue to each surface and after about 15 minutes, carefully join the pieces together. Of course this shortens the overall length but nothing except sewing works better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gew8805

The best thing to do for an historical item made of leather is nothing. Keep it out of direct sunlight, store it in an environment with stable humidity and temperature, and handle it as little as possible. That is what historical preservationists do.

---

This is a good example of what a "Preservationist" would do for a museum collection. A "Restorationist" would repair to useable condition.

In my experience, leather, untreated and not kept in a museum case will continue to deteriorate as it dries out and fungi attack the leather. Leather pieces my father treated with the neats foot oil & lanolin & beeswax treatment 70 years ago are still pliable and do not show any significant signs of deterioration.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gew8805

even worse than being displayed in direct sunlight - is petroleum

---

This is quite correct, and especially modern petroleum products with so many solvents. One of the purposes of the beeswax is to serve as a repellant to prevent water and oil from getting into the leather.

Although I think you made the term up, I would fall strongly into the Restorationist camp. Some things can still look good and be functional but be in poor shape. Toys for instance. I also collect toys, mostly cars and trucks. I would never dream of repainting an old toy car, it still has function and looks good sitting on the shelf. It isn't likely to rust sitting on a shelf either, just get dusty. Now if the wheels are busted off, that's another matter. It ceased being functional and doesn't really look that good either unless you turn it to a side that both visible wheels are exposed. Only if it gets to the point where it has active rust would I consider a full restoration, and in doing so, I also recognize it ceases being collectible to MOST collectors.

Getting to this holster. If the top could be made to stay closed or if even one link of the strap was still there, I'd probably let it alone. But as is, it isn't exactly functional and it doesn't look good with the missing strap. Add to that the leather will continue to deteriorate unless kept in ideal conditions and that's why I'm heavily leaning toward restoration.

Here's a good example of the Preservation versus Restoration debate (admittedly in the extreme)
Over a year ago I purchased this "wreck of a relic" Long Branch Sniper. It is very rare -- less than 100 Wartime Long Branch Snipers are known to exist. The Value on the GunBroker market at auction was $37 plus shipping.
https://www.milsurps.com/vbpgimage.p...4&d=1455061126
What should be done with it?

The Preservationist would say "preserve it as it is -- it reflects its history." If it went to a museum collection, it would sit in some vault, never to be displayed because it's a wreck. Then, years later, auctioned off as "mundane."

The Restorationist would say "restore it to its original glory -- it should reflect what it was intended to be;" then it would be cherished, displayed, shot, collected, and be better preserved for posterity than the alternative preservation route.

Here's what the gun looks like now (thanks to Brian Dick and a global team from the US, UK, and Canada that contributed 100% authentic parts).
https://www.milsurps.com/vbpgimage.p...6&d=1455061268 While it's not all "original," it is all "authentic," carefully restored with exactitude by Brian to post-war Ministry of Defense standards of excellence. The work was done by the best Enfield gunsmith in the U.S.. It now stands as a hallmark example of top-notch Canadian craftsmanship produced during the stress of war. And it's functional: it performs 100% of what it was designed to do, especially being shot on the range. All it now needs is an authentic scope bracket (coming soon) and scope (in the future when I can afford it).

It's value is now significantly higher than the $37 relic; and its likelihood of being cherished a century from now is nearly certain.

While this is not the answer to every decision, one must carefully weigh the options. I have other artifacts in my collection that have definitive provenance of their origin. Nothing will be done to them except to prevent further deterioration, because "refinishing" them would ruin the historic value.

Knowing when to preserve and when to restore, and when to do nothing is a refined choice, not one that should be left to Bubba or Bignorant.

All the best, Robert

---------

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aragorn243

Although I think you made the term up

---

Yes, I do make up words. As a writer, I find there are so many words actually missing in the English language that prevent us from expressing ourselves well. If there is an actual word "Preservationist," then why isn't there a word "Restorationist?" Similarly, if there is a word "Survival," then why isn't there a word "Thrival?" And so forth.....

Do not over oil the leather,,,
The worst mistake is to drench dried up leather in neatsfoot oil.

If the leather is stiff, drenching it will simply turn it to mush.

The trick is to use a lanolin based treatment,,,
And go slowly and sparsely with the applications.

One product I've used in the past is Dr. Jackson's Hide Rejuvenator.

Rub just a little bit on the leather,,,
Then wait a few days for it to soak in.

Then do another application,,,
repeat as many times as necessary.

Resist the temptation to flex the dry leather,,,
If you do that the fibers will break,,,
There's no repairing that.

I once restored an 1850's holster that was dry as a desert stone,,,
Honestly, it took about six weeks to rejuvenate the leather.

But when the hide rejuvenator finally permeated the fibers,,,
The leather became flexible again and the holster was restored.

As for sewing, do yourself a favor and learn to saddle stitch with two needles,,,
And save every piece of the original leather parts,,,
That's for the collectors who want it all.

I hope this helps.

Aarond

.

I'm always interested in the ingredients of different products.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aarondhgraham

Dr. Jackson's Hide Rejuvenator

---

Here is a list of ingredients and %.


Petrolatum USP (Vaseline) 10% - 15%
Sulfated animal oils, sodium salts 1%– 5%
Sulfated synthetic oil 1% – 5%
Fatty acids 1% – 5%
Glycerol esters of C14-C18 fatty acids (artificial substitute for lanolin?) 70% – 87%

FWIW

aarondhgraham, while I don't approve of Dr. Jackson's Hide Rejuvenator (the use of a Vaseline type product in it's contents alone says enough about that, too much petroleum from that source alone), I do agree with the spirit of your post, you agreed precisely with what I said in mine when you said "Do not over oil the leather,,, The worst mistake is to drench dried up leather in neatsfoot oil". Re-read what I said and you will see I advised that you should proceed slowly when doing this work and only use small amounts of PURE neatsfoot oil at a time. Reapply lightly as needed, neatsfoot oil will soak in more quickly than any modern, artificial goop, better in fact, requiring fewer applications than the thicker greases. Believe me, I have been at this for over 40 years and I have "been there and done that".

Seaspriter, you gave good advice and I especially appreciate your naming the contents of Dr. Jackson's Hide Rejuvinator. But I do ask that you avoid comparison of a restoration of a military rifle and a piece of leather gear, they were made for two different purposes with different expectations of durability and the rifle will long outlast the leather item when both start out new together. While the leather item was designed to be durable and was made of durable material, it was a throw away item that could be replaced easily when it was a common piece of military gear - it no longer is. I do not preach solely preservation as Aragorn243 seems to feel, I am a fan of restoration for use as long as an item is not rare or in as new condition, and without having it in had or at least good, detailed photos of the item I can not make that judgement call so I am happy to err on the side of caution. At the risk of offending the holster's owner (I do not intend to) I have to say that the holster in question is probably not a rare type and it sounds to be in only borderline collectible condition - it can be used. The advice I gave in the above thread was given to be on the safe side, if Aragorn243 were an experienced leather worker, I would have given more detailed info. Of course if he were experienced he would not have had to ask the question in the first place so I will will not say more on a public forum, this is best done in a face to face situation with the item in hand. He has shown many times on this forum that he is capable of good work even when inexperienced and I am sure that he will do well in this effort as well.

The role of an `original´ item is to document its historical connection. This can hardly be done accurately if it is not in the condition it was at the time. You could not accurately portray a uniformed, WWI active soldier in a faded, moth-eaten uniform, wearing disintegrated and tattered, leather equipment. As there are still some remaining leather craftsmen here in Germany (and in the former German provinces in Poland), making Luger holsters on exactly the same lasts and using mil. spec. leather and twine, I can see no purpose in reparing an old Luger holster, unless it is intended for use.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gew8805

I am a fan of restoration for use as long as an item is not rare or in as new condition

---

to add one to this (my personal biggest hate) restoring a well cared for and unmolested but aged original. thankfully it doesn't seem common here, but you see it far too regularly on car forums and it makes me want to cry every time.

Seems like some still haven't seen the photos on the other thread so I'll add them here, and the reason I am asking is not HOW to repair it, that I can do. It is solely WHETHER I should repair it. What I don't know because I do not collect these specifically is whether this is an item which is something that is worth more in current state or in restored state and I'm not asking that because I want to sell it. I prefer having items in useable states for personal reasons but if this item is so rare or collectible that I am damaging that aspect of it somehow I will leave it alone.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...szm7sdzj-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ftemb8jv-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...z00pnlrz-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...fqfi9vpp-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...xmykinbl-1.jpg

Thanks for posting where we could get a look at it. My recommendation is to leave it as is, there is nothing wrong with it in the current condition.

Where I stand on this is.......... In the REAL world of the Army, and it'll be the same in any service in any nation you like at our workshops we had a trade called 'equipment repairers' and it really speaks for itself. If we had a stack of rifles in for repair or small-asms associated stuff such as No4T's, Brens or L42's with torn or damaged accrutrements, handles, straps, eye caps etc etc, they be sent down to the equipment repairers who'd repair them to an acceptable serviceable standard. I bet that the German Army did too!

When my brother was rebuilding his old 1945 Bedford QL Lorry with a torn and well used canopy he just asked the local sailmaker to patch it and re-attach the missing straps just like this pistol would have been repaired in 1943!

Look at it this way. If we still repair parachutes to serviceable condition why shouldn't someone repair a holster.

:) Good post Peter, as always.

Thanks Gew, I just try to relate how it rally is in the real world

How you intend to repair an historic item depends on if you intend to use the item or if it is just being preserved for display.

I have now made it a quest to find a WWI Luger so it will be used lightly and displayed occasionally, otherwise probably be in the safe. Just spent all my gun money yesterday so the Luger quest is starting off almost broke. Details to follow on the Blackpowder Thread, I found myself a Trapdoor Springfield on Sunday.

Sorry, Other US Service Rifles Thread