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I just got this and hope to some day make a semi out of it. I know it's mostly garbage but I like it. Here are pics of the markings. Of course the is no barrel. I hope to purchase one as soon as they are available. Can the experts tell me what I have(other than Junk)? Thanks for looking.
PS. I have ordered two books on the Bren
I take it any reciever can be made to fit?
what you have there is the start of lots of fun. BREN's are fantastic. I have built a few and they are lots of work but they are worth the effort.
the info written on the side of the receiver explains that you have a 7.62mm L4A3 thats been made from a Mk2 BREN.
This is what you have.
Probably from India would be my guess, but I am no expert.
Thanks guys!
Built originally by Daimler (of Daimler cars....) in 1942 (photo 3) who became part of the Monotype group who made the Mk2 guns. Later converted from a Mk2 to a 7.62mm L4A3 gun at Enfield (photo 2). Not sure that it is an ex Indian gun as they were quite adept at producing/converting their own.
What you have is the finest light machine gun ever to grace the battlefield. Given it's simplicity, reliability and accuracy, no soldier ever asked for anything else
By pure coincidence I've just seen a live version of your L4A3. Daimler 1942, upgraded to Mk2/1 in 1955 and to L4A3 in 1968. In the chest, numbered to the gun with the second barrel also numbered to the gun plus CES check-list (which specifies 'with second barrel'). Unusual in that it still has the early red 2" x 1" oblong at the front of the body with 7 62 marked on it. Nice to see
I assume that you are aware of weaponsguild.com? If you look around there, you will find a lot of information about using a parts set like yours to produce an ATF compliant semi auto firearm. The conversion systems from open bolt selective fire to closed bolt semi auto only are interesting. As is the welding to repair the receiver.
I'll say it again Tiriaq but I have the greatest respect for those that reassemble these bodies cut through with the hot axe and resurrected into something worthwhile, either single shot or rock and roll fire. Reading the various and now long in the tooth threads on these rebuilds it would seem that a couple of BATF acceptable versions that work reliably are the norm now. Great project for the brave.
Barrels............ I am going to come up with some thoughts over the next few days.
As someone who went to night school to learn basic welding, I have the greatest respect for the welding skills of someone who can repair one of those receivers in such a manner that it is safe to use. Note that there is a cut between the breech face of the barrel and the locking shoulder, which means that the welds are exposed to the full force of the discharge.
There are folks also restoring Madsen guns - but the welds are not exposed to firing stresses, only to the slamming of the barrel and breech recoiling.
Tiriaq,Quote:
Originally Posted by tiriaq
One of the reasons for the success of the Bren was that they were to great extent overbuilt. I calculated the stresses on that weld and found that half the weld still had a factor of safety from coming apart. Don't expect that on a stamped receiver. Not recommending less than full welds, but it's nice to know that if you are a reasonably capable welder no cover plates are necessary.
Joe
You're dead right Joe. Over engineered without compromise. What makes the body even simpler to weld is the fact that it's metallurgically identical from one end to the other. So no hard spots or metallurgical nightmares to fall foul of when welding - except linear contraction after welding. But that can be calculated in mathematically. Really envious of you US owners and wish I could do/see/aid in such a project. What an experience.
I agree with Joe about that feared notion of 'body stretching' It's unfounded due to several reasons that were related a year or so ago when the subject cropped up in relation to L1A1 rifles.
As I understand it, the preferred welding method is to use a jig to preserve alignment and dimensions, with copper backing blocks at the weld sites. TIG preferred, many small welds, moving from spot to spot. This to reduce warping and distortion.
Here in Canada, such a reweld is not legally possible. If a cut auto is repaired, it legally reverts to what it was before being cut to pieces. And even if it remanufactured as semi auto, that isn't acceptable - the thing is classified as a converted auto (a mg reworked to semi), which is a prohibited firearm.
As ZGB has said in another post, they are probably ex Pakistan. If anyone reading this thread has an intact serial, can they post the number.
Pakistan.......... L4's........... do we have photographic evidence of this link?
ZGB suspected they came out of Pak, and they and the Indians did get a contract from Enfield but these may be or may not be them.
Pak and India got a contract from Enfield OR do you mean Enfield got a contract from India and Pak to supply L4's? I understand that after the 1965 debacle with the Sterlings and c.60,000 L8 conversion kits, India never did another deal with Enfield. If Pak used L4's there'd be footage of them used in the 1972 war with India.
The surplus arms market is a bizarre thing........many times specific information is simply not available. ESPECIALLY the kind that historically inclined creatures covet.
In almost every surplus military gun auction/sale that I've been part of, even tangentially, the most that is put up is something along the lines of ".....here it is, do you want it or not?". Most of the lots, especially again, lots of things like vintage machine guns are being disposed of to blacken the trail of just where they came from, where they've been, by whom or when, etc. What you see is all you get to make your story out of.
Then add in the buyers from places like SARCO, who make a distinct habit of buying the most atrocious lots of anything offered, anywhere, and you really can't say any more other than what/where/when you just acquired THAT lot from just then.
Lastly, throw in the often random and stupid national-level regulatory schemes involved, and you can have quite a bit more than just a mystery on your hands when it comes to try and assign any provable "historical" context to the story of any particular gun.
The "Russian Thompson trove" of several years back is a prime example- by all known and provable documentations, provenances, and official histories.....every one of those unissued TSMG's was manufactured in one or more of the old Soviet countries. The official paperwork says so.
Another favorite of mine is the tale of the Steyr MG-74's that found their way over here in the middle 90's. I have one, one of 101 reportedly, that came to me in unfired, unissued condition. Everyone knows that officially the Austrians just simply do not export arms like that, it doesn't happen. Asked about, they officially deny those guns existence (how many pictures do you want to see??). Then one day in early 1982, there was this cargo ship that got intercepted in the South Atlantic.......about to make port in this little island area called the "Malvinas", or to you guys, the "Falklands". Found aboard and diverted back to the UK were a quantity of brand new MG-74 guns, among other party favors. Ooooops........
So off into the UK arms dealer world they went, eventually imported here much later. Officially, these guns were "Made in the UK". Official paperwork says so.
Good luck trying to figure who "officially" got what, when, or HOW. More to the point is so much of this stuff is purposely arranged to obscure and obfuscate exactly the fine little details we here would love to nail down as provenances.
-TomH
It would really help if some of the serial numbers of the L4s could be confirmed. I believe the SARCO kits came from the same source as the UK ones a few years back.
With regards to the Atlantic Conveyor, more kit was written off against that loss then actually went down on the ship. It was seen as a way to tidy up people's inventories.
Had a couple of people give me their numbers.
Ue65A5196
UE65A4492
Both look pretty much unused since conversion and retain the red rectangular 7.62 markings.
Thats where one of the Second Engineers I sailed with learnt to swim.......Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit plumber
....much more importantly, if offered a convenient way out, via "plausible deniability" for the embarrassed actors involved. A couple years back, a list of known MG-74 serials was presented to certain Austrian officials during an IWA show.....to say they were embarrassed and very unwilling to discuss the issue is a gross understatement. Austria doesn't do that, don't you know. Their unfortunate recent history and former predilections to get involved with unsavory historical affairs, and all.......Nope, never happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit plumber
And yet, look here:https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._zpsfbbw-1.jpg
How'd THAT happen in this day and age of "responsible" arms transfers?? Move along, nothing to see here.......
Think someone has their wires crossed here, The " SS Atlantic Conveyor" wasn't intercepted..... it was hit on the 25 May 1982 by two Argentine Exocet missiles, twelve lives were lost, on re boarding the vessel, nothing was salvageable, it sank three days later whilst under tow.
Agh yes, got my wires crossed. Who were these MG74s destined for?
Not sure; The story that has been told here for the last 20+ years was that these came off a ship destined to supply the Argentine forces, right before the party started. Argentina had supposedly gone on a harried last-minute shopping trip to find added things it desired as the situation was going hot. Said vessel thus delivering under quiet circumstance, the shopping bag full of goodies.
Such things being discovered, the ship was intercepted, goodies taken then as spoils.
That is the publicized story behind the guns here.
Would love to know more details, but over here, the whole "Falklands" thing draws less interest than watching the hose freeze in winter.
-TomH
The sinking of the Atlantic Conveyor was a Quartermasters Dream!....It was worked out much later after the campaign had ended. That hd the amount of kit & equipment actually been on Board.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigduke6
That unit QMs claimed for, for their various Unit stores supplied to the campaign. Then the Ship would have sunk in the Harbour under the sheer weight. Of what was alleged to have been 'Lost in Action' & written off!
It sure did 'Balance the Books' for these 'Lucky' QM's. & tidied the paperwork up nicely!.....;)