Incident

I was lurking on Son's favorite forum and came across a thread about a fairly serious incident involving an SMLE (actually a 2A1). It's a bit confusing but what I gather is that upon firing, the bolt flew back and only stopped when the extractor housing hit the receiver and broke. There was questionable cartridge reloading involved and that seems to be the focus of the discussion over there. I'm wondering though, is this what can happen if the rifle fires with the bolt not completely closed due to damaged safety lugs at the rear of the bolt and/or on the cocking piece. With a moderator's permission here is a link for anyone who may be interested.

Surplusrifle Forum View topic - stuck case

Something is very amiss with the whole set up I mean " I brought some reloading gear and powder at a garage sale" good grief someone may have tried duplex loading and put trail boss in there just plain stupid and very rightly said by another that he was not looking at the wall hanger from 6' under.
I would not use that rifle again weld it up so it can never be sold/used ever again who knows what pressures were involved, needless to say from what I can gather if the bolt is not fully closed on an Lee Enfield and the trigger lets the weapon fire then it will drop the sear into the half cock on the cocking piece locking the bolt and the trigger until it is re-cocked by pulling the cocking piece fully rearward.
Nope the chap was a fool of the highest order no mater what their qualifications in life and if they are going to shoot it again who knows when it might fail he was lucky the bolt only broke his shooting glasses without taking half his face with it people have no respect for the forces they are dealing with 6" in front of their beak......

I will put it in simplified terms say a Holden Commodore weighs 2 tonnes roughly therefore that equates to 4480lbs (1 tonne = 2240lbs) so if we place 9 Commodores on top of each other we have a combined weight of 40,320 lbs now Lees operate roughly at around 42,000 lb/sq imaging having that 40,320lbs pressing on a 1 inch square of your skin how do you reckon you would go. There is no margin for error when dealing with these rifles and putting it in a vice with a string to the trigger what type of serviceability test is that....Good grief!!!!!!!!!

I'm amazed we haven't heard or read many more stories like this one. I've lost count of how many RFI 2A and 2A1 rifles that have been sent here so I could check them out and make sure they're in specification. I've used a good portion of my nos long SMLE bolt heads to get them back into specification too over the years because many have been way out of spec. The 2A/2A1 is an interesting collector's piece and part of Lee Enfield history but I would NEVER make one of them my favorite 7.62 caliber range rifle. The big importers dumped them on the market in the late 1980's and early 90's by the tens of thousands and here in the USA where there are no proof laws, it's really a crap shoot what you're getting and they should be thoroughly checked out before you even think about firing one. You've all heard me refer to them as "Barney Fife" rifles, made for carrying, not shooting too much and keep your bullet in your pocket! If you want a Lee Enfield in 7.62 caliber, save up and get one built on the much stronger No.4 action. I've got my steel helmet handy for the incoming.

Well said Brian but as you know intelligence is in the hand of the end user and in this case the user was lacking the intelligence to understand and respect what they were dealing with. If the incident happened on a range then there would be an investigation for sure as the person not only put themselves at risk but also other shooters if it handgrenaded. Nope this person missed the Darwin theory completely and has the brain capacity of a dried amoeba......not really fussed if I wrangle their feathers with my summation of the facts as presented in the link.

Yep, that's the flat earth society:lol:

I call it 'natural selection'

At least the old turki isn't involved in this one... He doesn't have time for the forum scene since he opened his new business, "the Company BSA" also known as the "British Sword Academy, Historical European Martial Arts" ...I think it's a school for the infamous brit ninjas.. Or is it a rebirth of Ecky Thump!

Had to struggle to figure out what happened. Sounds as if laddie made up handloads with mixed rifle and pistol powder, which caused a catastrophic case failure. The case failure resulted in the lug being broken off the bolthead. Laddie was sprayed with fragments, had his glasses broken. He talked about being struck by the bolt, but then reported that he had to use a hammer to get the bolt open. The amount of ignorance in the thread is remarkable, not only in the description of what happened, but in some of the advice that was given.

I was trying to fathom what sort of failure could make a Lee Enfield bolt fail and blow back, considering the two lugs make this just about impossible. The only one I could think of is if perhaps the cocking piece failed and allowed the firing pin to protrude forward, coupled with aggressive closing of the bolt might just possibly might allow a breech explosion without the bolt being locked ??

Otherwise surely the action body would need to fracture and fail in a quite spectacular way to allow the bolt to let go on a Lee, or am I wrong gents?

If this happened to one of our rifles there's be a properly conducted forensic examination of the rifle, the ammo, the user and the supervision. Without those points it's all speculation. But if the bolt was partially open and the safety stud on the cocking piece were sheared off, then the rifle could fire. With this result

So quite possible and I know its wrong to assume but it may not have had a safety on it but to clamp a rifle in a vice with a piece of string to the trigger then hiding behind a brick wall is not a serviceability test in any sense.
But the main thing is despite the near catastrophic nature of this incident no one was seriously injured and hopefully the end user wises up about weapons usage and reloading practices.

The curse about these half-baked stories, is that they are then "fully baked" by people who, having an axe to grind, interpret them in the way that suits their agenda and - hey presto - another urban myth is born that endless sober appraisals will never be able to kill off.

All who use and contribute to these forums should be aware that anything to do with gun safety should be taken seriously, as there are enough "un-well"-wishers about who seize on anything that can be used as "ammunition" to forward the argument that gun collectors and users are dangerous nutcases whose activities should be banned.

In this connection, a couple of weeks ago I read in an online newspaper article that a deceased "gun nut" was revealed in the UK to have been hoarding all sorts of things that were presumed to be illegal, with masses of ammo to suit. Amongst the photos produced in the article were a couple of steel bins full of EMPTY cases. which, of course, are no longer live ammunition, but scrap brass.

Here is a link to another report on the same subject.

UK’s largest stash of illegal weapons found in parish councillor’s home – video | UK news | The Guardianhttps://www.milsurps.com/https://www.milsurps.com/https://www.milsurps.com/

Notice the EMPTY cartridge cases and a bin full of inert projectiles shown as pseudo-evidence.
Neither of which would "cause an enormous explosion in the event of a fire" - as claimed by a police spokesman.
But anything that can be twisted into a negative interpretation is grist to the anti-gun lobbyist's mill.

No photos of actual live ammo. Why not? Was there any?
It makes one wonder - how many of those weapons were actually capable of firing?

Ironically, the Lee Enfield design is about as idiot proof as a service rifle can be, this shows that there are many levels of IDIOT, James Paris Lee didn't take account of this particular dimwit!

Yes PC the press often feed on the negatives of our profession, mind you I passed my lunacy questions in the firearms test exceedingly well, also excelling at shooting a cow instead of a pig target and finally my group sizes were just to big at a 100m think it was 390mm for 3 shots had to be under 75mm.
Could not figure how I managed not to acquire my shooting licence. (All a big fib this lot) The press love hammering every little mistake but to them I say if the sh*t goes south and a war erupts you will sorely need civilians who can shoot well and posses good field craft tactics as pens and paper make a poor substitute in stopping an invading army hell bent on killing you.:bitch:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Ironically, the Lee Enfield design is about as idiot proof as a service rifle can be, this shows that there are many levels of IDIOT, James Paris Lee didn't take account of this particular dimwit!

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The first electronic instrument I ever made was supposed to be foolproof.
The first user nevertheless managed to FUBAR it*.

*By removing the cover** and poking around inside with an earthing lead - as a candidate for the Darwin Award would naturally do with high-power 3-phase equipment.

**Which had a large red warning against precisely such misuse engraved on the front panel.

Lesson for life: there is no such thing as idiot-proof. Merely various level of idiot-resistance.

The main issue, as outlined by others previous, is the lack of facts in this incident account.

The only thing that can be reliably concluded is there was a firearms malfunction, and the shooter was not seriously hurt.

Claims:

• Ishapore 2A1 in .308 had a case head separation
  
• The case remained stuck in the chamber without the head.
  
• Used unspecified powder from an unknown source to reload own ammunition.
  
• Fired 1 round of this ammunition.
  
• "Bolt" blew backwards, towards the shooter.
  
• (Some part of the rifle) Struck and broke shooter's eyewear, and small projectile injury to the forehead.
  
• Shooter found powder to be contaminated with other powder flakes.
  
• Rifle bolt is damaged.
  
• "Bolt head" "departed" but not the bolt.
  
• Bolt and striker function normally.
  
• Shooter supplied photo shows a damaged bolt head that is missing the extractor
  
  https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...106556t1-1.jpg
  
• Had to open bolt with a hammer.
  
• Shooter supplies load data from round fired:
  
  Lake City Brass, once fired, surplus. (Sentryduty comment: Could be Machine Gun fired surplus brass, which would have a "very hard" 1st firing, combined with incorrect powder could be a contributing factor in the case separation)
  Powder was "assumed" to be H380 loaded to 40 grains
  Bullet 168 gr Sierra.
  Primer CCI
  
• Shooter custom loads another cartridge with similar load of unknown powder, and shoots through a different rifle "K-31" - flattened primer and hard to eject. SD Comment - Classic signs of over pressure and poor judgement
  
• Shooter fires 5 additional rounds of unspecified origin, claims no case head separation. Ejecting cases with cleaning rod, suggests the shooter is still using the damaged bolt head.

Claims end

Sentryduty comments:

Given no other information it appears the 2A1 rifle broke the bolt head locking lug upon firing a round which was loaded by the shooter from unknown powder. This appears to be a result of an over pressure condition/faulty ammunition.

Shooter failed to exercise safe reloading practices by using unknown powder from an unsealed container.

Shooter failed to heed caution by attempting to fire the same powder through another rifle after the incident.

A weakened surplus cartridge case may have contributed to, but would not be a primary factor to the case failure.

I would like to say there are some lesson to be learned here, but there isn't anything new, all of the above could have been prevented with proper knowledge and practices. Reasonably ought to have known better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sentryduty

Shooter fires 5 additional rounds of unspecified origin, claims no case head separation. Ejecting cases with cleaning rod, suggests the shooter is still using the damaged bolt head.

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Fired five additional rounds :clap: a very thorough IDIOT at that ... he really was tempting God to smite him from the planet! This is always the issue at the firing point isn't it, you have to trust the guys to your left and right are switched on and haven't effectively devised a home made walnut and steel IED!

So how dangerous was that part of the bolt head hitting an innocent on looker :mad: , I am appalled that the twit fired the same powder in a K-31 Flattened primers, then uses the same damaged bolt in the rifle extracting spent rounds with a cleaning rod, good grief what a raving lunatic.
Sentry the only lesson here is to ban that clutz from owning a rifle why I would even ban him from having a lacky band I have no idea of how much it would take to break a bolt that way, please aliens:dunno: from outer space take that person away and experiment on them to see if they have a brain as all they are here is a knuckle dragger............... God save us, a prophetic picture of the bolt as I reckon the user should read it cover to cover and never touch a rifle again or any firearm for that matter.

P.S will some one pick up P L from the floor will you, as I expect he has never read or heard of something like this that borders on insanity even with all his years surrounded by "Crunchies":runaway:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

In this connection, a couple of weeks ago I read in an online newspaper article that a deceased "gun nut" was revealed in the UK to have been hoarding all sorts of things that were presumed to be illegal, with masses of ammo to suit. Amongst the photos produced in the article were a couple of steel bins full of EMPTY cases. which, of course, are no longer live ammunition, but scrap brass.

Here is a link to another report on the same subject.

UK’s largest stash of illegal weapons found in parish councillor’s home – video | UK news | The Guardian

Notice the EMPTY cartridge cases and a bin full of inert projectiles shown as pseudo-evidence.
Neither of which would "cause an enormous explosion in the event of a fire" - as claimed by a police spokesman.
But anything that can be twisted into a negative interpretation is grist to the anti-gun lobbyist's mill.

No photos of actual live ammo. Why not? Was there any?
It makes one wonder - how many of those weapons were actually capable of firing?

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Patrick, as you say all they had was empty cases and a few pics of "Hide Aways" I would say most of his collection was Deactivated, maybe a few Live parts and one or two Live firers but the story was blown up out of proportion, similar to a few years ago about Someone who collected grenades, he did have a big collection but nothing Live IIRC, just a lot of No36 inert grenades.