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I bought a Leather Sling from some guy, but I didn't know the seller was gong to add his original one to that Bavarian Rockola that I bought form him and it finally arrived yesterday. Is there a way to trace the markings on it. I could not take it apart or even shoot it today. I woke up with one heck of a Pinch Nerve in Neck and its effecting my neck and entire back. What luck ! It looks amazing a whole better than Pictures that's for sure. Thank You.
Frank
Made by "Stolla" in Vienna, dated 1962.
Stolla was a large and long lasting maker, not sure about when but there are many different types of Austrian and German slings with their markings, most seem to be post-WW2 dated. High quality work.
'1 ABT' is '1st Abteilung', or '1st Battalion'. I think '5C' is '5th Regiment'. Then you have perhaps '62nd Company or Squad'. Typical police markings of the time. The only thing I'm sure of there is '1 ABT'.
Thanks Inland44, I knew it had to stand for something. I just started a data Sheet to get some history...BTW you won't believe the mistake I made on the S/N. I was thinking of another, but it does change the parts for that Range. Thanks for your help I'm glad I'm getting something from somebody. Thanks gew8805 and Inland 44. I appreciate it.
Semper Fi
Frank
Sorry INLAND44, the stamp "1ABT5C62" is correctly translated as "62nd weapon of the 5th Company, 1st Abteilung".
So, how do we know the date is 1962? :help: - Bob
Sorry about what? I call that a win especially since I don't know any German. But thanks for the translation anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by gew8805
It's not dated, the "62" in the unit marking was mistaken as a date rather than the waffen number.Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
---------- Post added at 01:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:38 PM ----------
Glad to help. :wave:Quote:
Originally Posted by INLAND44
During the course of researching the use of the M1 Carbines by the Austrians I had the opportunity to go through a number of large boxes containing various slings removed from carbines with Austrian Gendarmerie markings. Most of which were leather. I divided them into 5 primary groups shown below. Looked at many more but these 5 groups were consistent.
Attachment 71166
Far left, they were a mixed batch of slings from other weapons modified for use with the carbines. 2nd left were consistent stitching, buckles, leather patterns as those marked Stolla but had no Stolla or 1ABT markings. 3rd from left I think had Stolla markings but no 1ABT.
4th from left were stamped ...
Attachment 71165
Far right were stamped ...
Attachment 71163
Only two were found with these markings...
Attachment 71164
I was told by several retired members of the Austrian Gendarmerie the 1ABT was 1st Abteilung, the 5C was 5th Company. They related this was a civilian department within the Austrian Gendarmerie that handled procurement acceptance. That the 1GBA was the predecessor who handled procurement before the 1ABT5C. Also, the last two numbers were the year this department accepted the slings from the contractor, Stolla & Son of Vienna (Stolla Wien). Several other Austrian sources repeated this information.
Abteilung has various meanings depending on the context in which it is used. It can be a military unit or a civilian unit within the military. An Abteilung can be a division, battalion, or other size (larger, smaller, civilian, etc). Easy to get things confused that are confusing.
I had to rely on the Austrians for this info as it was all foreign to me, and the Austrian terminology is sometimes different from the same words/phrases in German.
For clarification, I've seen hundreds of these slings and own several dozen of them. The majority were marked 1GBA56 or 1ABT5C62. Or had no markings. The Stolla logo was sometimes stamped as an impression in the leather, sometimes stamped with ink. Some slings included handwritten info on a particular land within the gendarmerie, a few had an ink stamp indicating same. Some had names handwritten on them.
Maybe the 56 or 62 would mean something different in Germany. I dunno. Only know what was shared by several independent sources and how many slings I saw with 56 and 62. And only two with 59.
Jim
USCarbines.com
P.S. I had my slings before knowing these even existed.
An EXCELLENT post Jim, I am envious of your collection. Thank you for clearing up the information concerning the last two digits, while similar, the Austrian marks are different from those used by Germany and my apologies for causing confusion. Well done! :)
Jim , I received these slings a few years back from a gent that told me they were used on the Bavarian carbines . I haven't seen any like them since or any reference that they were used on the Bavarian carbines . They have Numbers and what looks like names written on them like the leather slings .. Do you have any Idea about these slings ..
Bavarian Fabric Slings by rcycles45 | Photobucket
(the dead links below could not be removed. The pics they were for were added back in so they're all here.)
First challenge is for many years what people have been calling "Bavarians" has included carbines used in the U.S. Occupation Zones of Hessen, Wurttemberg-Baden, the Bremen Enclave, Bavaria and the American Sector in Berlin. Add to this carbines sold by Bavaria to the Landpolizei in Baden-Wurttemberg (1/3 of which was the previous American Zone of Wurttemberg-Baden), the Landpolizei in Lower Saxony and to the Austrian Gendarmerie. Along with the carbines used by the agencies in Austria that were never used anywhere in West Germany.
The carbine that got me started doing this research, I was told it was used by the police in Bavaria by a number of people on various forums. when I contact an officer in Bavaria I knew, I learned the markings were those of the Austrian Gendarmerie in Lower Austria. Since then I've learned it was never in West Germany, it was given to the Austrians at the end of the Austrian Occupation in 1955 by the U.S. Military Assistance Program.
The next challenge is trying to determine which of these agencies used what and when and whether they had it made for them or inherited it with carbines from another jurisdiction.
Add to this that many of these agencies were not given U.S. slings and it was years before their jurisdiction had any made, if they had any made at all. The line level people did what many of us would do today if we didn't have a sling for a firearm made in another country. We'd use a sling from a different weapon. So what was used as a sling for a carbine isn't necessarily the same as what was issued as a sling for the U.S. M1 Carbines.
And I'm no expert on slings. My knowledge is limited to my own experiences.
I have yet to see or learn of information as to what, if any, slings were used by the police in Bavaria other than U.S. GI slings provided along with the carbines. I don't doubt they had some made at some point but none have the markings of Bavaria's agencies that I've seen so far.
There are several slings with German words that have turned up. Some on returns from West Germany that have Bavaria markings but I don't know if they were used by Bavaria as opposed to the carbines purchased from Bavaria by Lower Saxony and/or Baden-Wurttemberg. Lower Saxony didn't put markings on their carbines and bought them just before the occupation ended. Keep in mind Germanic surnames are common in many countries.
Slings I know were used in West Germany usually have the words Zieh Hier (Pull Here) on the snap. The sling below with the large FIX marking, the pics were shared by Bill Ricca.
Attachment 71290 Attachment 71299 Attachment 71291 Attachment 71292 Attachment 71293 Attachment 71294
Not to be confused with Knip Hier, which is Dutch for Pull Here. This first sling is actually black and has been sold by Northridge Gun Parts for a number of years. Couldn't find my pics of them so used this off Ebay instead.
Attachment 71295Attachment 71297
This sling is marked Knip Hier on the snap. I included it to show the metal as a lead in to the slings you were told were used by "Bavaria".
Attachment 71298
The leather slings in the earlier post on this thread included a batch on the far left of the pics that were slings from other weapons that had been adapted for use with the M1 Carbines. The two slings below were found on carbines returned by Austria to the U.S. Army. The two carbines had both Bavaria markings and Austrian Gendarmerie markings.
Attachment 71286Attachment 71287
Attachment 71300Attachment 71301
Attachment 71302Attachment 71303
Attachment 71288Attachment 71289
One of the things I've noticed with slings from other weapons adapted for use with the carbines is they sometimes have a mix of things from more than one sling or modifications. In the examples above, the use of the brown leather keepers with the tan canvas slings. In Austria the leather used by the police was black, as in West Germany. This brown leather was used by the Austrian Gendarmerie.
I suspect these two slings, like yours, were from other weapons and used as carbine slings. As to who used the slings, because of the carbines they were on when they arrived in the USA it's logical to assume they were used by the Austrian Gendarmerie. As to whether or not an agency in Bavaria used them and the Austrians inherited them I don't know.
I've seen a number of carbines used by the Bavaria Forestry Police with a variety of slings both WWII German military rifle slings and civilian hunting rifle slings. Given the weapons carried by the Austrians in WWII were the same as those carried by the Germans I suspect slings from several WWII Axis power weapons were used on M1 Carbines by the Austrians and Germans, separately.
Reality for the West German police 1946-1952 was, good luck on getting anything made for a carbine. They either used U.S. GI or made do with whatever they could get their hands on. Austria wasn't supposed to have carbines during the occupation of their country. Those they did have were on loan quietly from the U.S. Occupation forces to the Austrian Gendarmerie in the American Zone. Assuming the info on the numbers 56 was accurate info, in the previous post, the Austria Gendarmerie was having brown/tan leather slings made by Stolla in Vienna by 1956.
Sorry I didn't find my better pics. Fatigue.
Jim
I wonder if they came up with something other than USGI oilers? It looks like the tips on some of those slings would be impossible to thread around a standard oiler. - Bob
I seen a couple with these type and a leather Sling with a US Oiler. You have to soak it in water or hot water I forgot and you have to work it in and get it to stretch and it will work, but time consuming and really work at it. There is a YouTube video of a guy that has done it and explains it and he take his off and puts it back on. I had saved it, but either it moved or I can't find it at the moment. Jim works All nigjt and sleeps all day. Tonight email him and ask him he will tell you.
Frank
Not uncommon to find wooden dowels or plastic rods used in lieu of an oiler to hold the leather slings in place on the carbines used by the Austrian Gendarmerie. Far as I know it was a Austrian Gendarmerie thing and not done in Bavaria.
Took me a couple guesses to master using an oiler with the leather slings. I use a liquid leather cleaner that cleans, softens and preserves the leather. While the leather is still wet, but softened, I feed the sling around the oiler. Not hard at all, and doesn't require any more time than if it was a GI canvas sling and oiler. Once the metal end is through just pull on the metal tab instead of trying to push the sling through.
Jim
Some of those leather ones look like the button comes out, which would make them easier to thread around the oiler. Those canvas ones having the riveted tabs, look thicker than USGI "D tips" - I bet they could be a real pain to install on a stock with a tight oiler slot. - Bob
Attachment 71316
Buttons on that batch of leather slings I posted earlier were brass, plastic or steel. Vast majority were brass. Plastic was on the ones without the Stolla markings and I assume those came after Stolla went out of business in the 70's.
Jim