Some questions about .303" Mk.VIIIz ammo

Hi all! New poster, relatively long time lurker. :D

I'm taking up handloading at the moment and I've been wondering for a while how best to reproduce a service load with modern components. Here in the UK our only factory .303" options are PPU and S&B, both of which are adequate but far from exceptional.

From what I've read, nobody on this side of the pond makes a flat based 174gr bullet, only boat tails, which leads me to think it wouldn't be possible to faithfully reproduce the Mk.VII round. But wasn't the Mk.VIII's bullet boat tailed? And if so, what were the round's specifications?

I'd love to be able to produce ammunition that's as close as possible to the original. Thanks in advance for your help, folks. :cheers:

I have never been an ammo reloader but do follow the threads about reloading .303 a bit. Especially the holy grail of an exact match in every way, shape and form to replicate Mk7, 7z or 8z. Reminds me of when my son started senior school and we were required to buy a new PC. So I went to the IT dept and told the main man there that I wanted to buy dopey son a computer that would see him through his senior school years and through 6th form. Said computer should/would be as up to date THEN as it was when he started. A Computer holy grail in effect - so what would he recommend. He scratched his head, rubbed his chin, thought for a second and........ His answer was 3 words long. 'wouldn't we all.......'

I think that this is the answer that you're going to get. There'll be some very close but...........

Having been a 303 reloader since the late 60s early 70s the short answer is you cant. The projectiles are different the powders are better though you can replicate the power curve to a degree but the newer powders give higher velocity at a lower pressure peak. If you want to match range sight elevation scales tough you will have to make your own. I use Hornady 174gn and a charge of ADI 2208 to do what I want. The velocity is higher than cordite the felt recoil is much less. The T I use prints one shot holes @ 100yds and matches my 308 target rifle going back until the scope qualities come in to play. I use a Chronny to find the load the rifle likes then go from there. There are projectiles in the 175/180 gn weight than can be used with good results. It is a pity no one makes Mk7 they are the best by far. If you can source some suspect click bang ammo pull the projectiles and reload them.

Best projies I ever used were Taipan 170gn HPFB by Malcolm Bone, try as we may there is no projectile or manufacturer out there willing to tool up and mass produce the Mk VII or the IIIZ projectile.
As Bindi2 alluded and the fact is our powders are better, burn cooler than cordite, introduce possibly due to their burn rates a different node vibration in the barrel, the projies we use today have better BC's so flight curve is different than the Mk VII best thing is to load up varying powder weighted rounds with your selected powder and do the hard yards like we all did on the range to get the sight settings for your particular load that your rifle likes digesting, plenty of info out there to get started anyway.
Going from another persons pet load may not work in your rifle just as some rifles shot better than others from the factory in WWII they may come from the same line but are all different animals, I used Hornady 150gn SPFB up to 400m and they shot quite well considering and being .312" is better for slightly tired barrels as SMK's are somewhere between .310" .310.5" roughly speaking.

Nope its range time with varying loads bloke to find out exactly what works in your rifle, though a rumor is and they should not be far away is that HBC in Aus are going to make the Mk VII projectile it has been in the pipe line a long time apparently I think it is David is waiting for the forming dies to arrive so hopefully not to distant future, I cannot give any dates as there has been no word but safe to say there will be plenty of customers.
It may be a nice change for us here in Australia to have a product locally made so we do not have to hang on shipments after the producing companies have looked after their local markets we constantly go through waves of non supplies of various components be it brass, powder, primers and projectiles sometimes shipments are pretty much pre-sold and we in Western Australia suffer more than the rest of the country due to the shipments being landed in the eastern states and trucked over to us 0000's of klms away on the other side of Australia.

For Aussie shooters, I am waiting for a reamer to be made to finish my bump up dies so I can make .312 and .313 174gn flatbase bullets. They will be made out of the Hornady 174gn bullet. When HBC get their 174gn .311 going I will have a go at using them as well. The reamer is being made of an original MKVII drawing.

Looks like I'd be on a hiding to nothing then. Thanks all, and good luck to the Aussies with the Mk.VII project. Hopefully someone imports a few up here!

The advice given here in all honesty is relevant to what your starting out to do, there are no secrets to reloading it is a step by step process just follow the rules trialing different powders and weights we all had to do it when I got developing loads to my 6.5/284 my first barrel was nearly shot out before I got the combination right for that barrel then do it all again for the new barrel so there is no easy road here 6.5/284 barrels are pretty much toast at @1200 rounds if shooting F class.
So because we do not give out the magic formula which I may say there is none its just range time to see what works and no offence I am not going to leave my a*se out in the wind for possible litigation in giving you a load that works in my rifles and for unknown reasons you blow yourself up and are injured or killed as I cannot vouch for just how well you reload your rounds.

Allot of us here are probably up to 0000's of rounds loaded at one stage I was reloading for 5 303's all of which like something a little different in powders & charge weights from its stable mates so sorry if you did not get the grail in this case case. :dunno:
I would say HBC will look at exporting just have to see how long it takes to get up the numbers, as a footer I rang Malcolm Bone 14 months ago asking about 303 projies after not contacting him for 4 years with a similar request and was pretty much rebuffed nicely as Malcolm does in that it would cost him over 15,000 ~ 20,000 AU/dollars to get enough lead and copper components to make it a worthwhile endevour, he was hesitant of being stuck with unsaleable gear.
So anyone wanting the Taipans feel free to contact him and ask sure would be nice to buy the presses from him I have heard they were a bit ancient but they sure as heck produced a wickedly accurate .312 projectile.

you guys really need to try the Hornady 3130G .312 HPBT that Hornady make for Graf's in the US.
http://www.grafs.com/catalog/product...21415/inline/1

These shoot way better than the Sierra MatchKing. I load them to as close as possible to original velocity using ADI AR2209 powder.

I have put a few thousand through 3 or 4 different rifles. I have just ordered another 300 projs here in New Zealand.

We would try them if they were available... We can only get the .311 Hornady's.

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Originally Posted by martins8589

We would try them if they were available...

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I wonder if the guys in NZ (Reloaders Supplies) import them direct from Grafs rather that Hornady??

I've not really had much luck with the fmj Hornady, they are really only .310".

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...r8evcrru-1.jpg

You mean this stuff? LOL

Not trying to rub salt in the wound, this will never be shot but will stay in my collection.

That's not just salt, that is Mediterranean Sun Evaporated Salt imported directly from the Larnaca Salt Lakes and hand ground by a Cypriot ex-Pat named Kellari directly into the wound in question.

But you ain't got a Vickers champing at the bit either........... That might change your ideas!

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Originally Posted by LondonEnfield

Hi all! New poster, relatively long time lurker. :D

I'm taking up handloading at the moment and I've been wondering for a while how best to reproduce a service load with modern components. Here in the UK our only factory .303" options are PPU and S&B, both of which are adequate but far from exceptional.

From what I've read, nobody on this side of the pond makes a flat based 174gr bullet, only boat tails, which leads me to think it wouldn't be possible to faithfully reproduce the Mk.VII round. But wasn't the Mk.VIII's bullet boat tailed? And if so, what were the round's specifications?

I'd love to be able to produce ammunition that's as close as possible to the original. Thanks in advance for your help, folks. :cheers:

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The bullets are available in the UK but they are not cheap as they are hand swaged...... depends what you plan on doing if its for the occasional shooter then I would say its the way to go.

MrE posted a thread about a dye he made and shared the info for anyone who wanted it, as mentioned its a bump dye that forms the boat tail into a flat base, very simple solution but not easy to make the reamer, I had a few disasters with a few reamers I made, but came up with an other idea regarding the Dye....... still to finish but like many projects before got shelved to do other jobs..... although am getting round to some as the weather gets better at long last........

Speaking of weather, I was sitting outside a bar (of all places) in Dunkirk last Friday getting some rays, was a little sun trap and my face was burning..... still a chill in the air but I left there with a healthy glow......

Back to bullets, they are hand made by B&S Products, PM me for contact details etc.

Geez BD you were caught out red faced were you :madsmile:
Looks like Mr L E took offence at my saying he would have to do some work in getting his reloading underway me I do not give a rats rissole if he has taken his bat, ball and the wickets mind you and faded away also I stand by my statement I do not know just how good they are at reloading and I am not putting my backside out into the gunfire to get sued away because he says "But he told me that was what I had to do?".

Enfield 303 youy have to explain to us A) why the can is open much better sealed B) Why there are a few rounds missing!!!! by the way years ago I went to my friends place (Yes Cinders has some friends I pay them highly I may add) who was a WWII armourer he had all sorts of gear in his work shop was like an Aladins cave he had a pillow case with @20 pistols in it he tipped up for my son to play with whilst we were chatting (they were wrecked guns most were just frames).
Anyway this day we were talking about belt fed MG's so Jack as cool as you like reaches under a bench rummages around then pulls out a full 250 round belt with every round a tracer :yikes: say's he "Roo shooter ordered this from me and never came to pick it up" he then proceeded to stuff it back into its hiding spot anticipating my question he stated it was not for sale, he had mountains of gear but was like the south end of a north bound camel and that my friends is dust proof.
Sadly Jack had a falling out with his son it got nasty so in retaliation there was some dobbing police firearms paid a visit and wreaked havoc with Jack he passed away sadly and his collection split up some through his will others through his son it was a sad day for me as I enjoyed his and his wifes company for many years we still have the small doyeley his wife made for my son when he was a bub. RIP Jack

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Geez BD you were caught out red faced were you :madsmile:
Looks like Mr L E took offence at my saying he would have to do some work in getting his reloading underway me I do not give a rats rissole if he has taken his bat, ball and the wickets mind you and faded away also I stand by my statement I do not know just how good they are at reloading and I am not putting my backside out into the gunfire to get sued away because he says "But he told me that was what I had to do?".

Enfield 303 youy have to explain to us A) why the can is open much better sealed B) Why there are a few rounds missing!!!! by the way years ago I went to my friends place (Yes Cinders has some friends I pay them highly I may add) who was a WWII armourer he had all sorts of gear in his work shop was like an Aladins cave he had a pillow case with @20 pistols in it he tipped up for my son to play with whilst we were chatting (they were wrecked guns most were just frames).
Anyway this day we were talking about belt fed MG's so Jack as cool as you like reaches under a bench rummages around then pulls out a full 250 round belt with every round a tracer :yikes: say's he "Roo shooter ordered this from me and never came to pick it up" he then proceeded to stuff it back into its hiding spot anticipating my question he stated it was not for sale, he had mountains of gear but was like the south end of a north bound camel and that my friends is dust proof.
Sadly Jack had a falling out with his son it got nasty so in retaliation there was some dobbing police firearms paid a visit and wreaked havoc with Jack he passed away sadly and his collection split up some through his will others through his son it was a sad day for me as I enjoyed his and his wifes company for many years we still have the small doyeley his wife made for my son when he was a bub. RIP Jack

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Well personally would never open the can however it came as seen, my son gave it to me for Christmas last year buying it from a guy that works at our local gun shop. I do have a couple of 8's loose in my collection so could fill more of the belt however bit of a moot point IMO.

I do know where there is a sealed can of 7's, 360 rds in chargers/bandoliers. I can get it for anyone if they want, but shipping will be expensive. Only negative for many, it is in Canada.

Yeah I would love a can but getting it to Aus would be a nightmare and if I flew there and tried to get it out of Canada and then into Aus even on a collectors licence the AFP and Customs may see me as a threat which I am not just a passionate collector like some of us here.

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Originally Posted by enfield303t

I do know where there is a sealed can of 7's, 360 rds in chargers/bandoliers. I can get it for anyone if they want, but shipping will be expensive. Only negative for many, it is in Canada

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And right now the hamster wheel in my brain is spinning thinking about the prospect.

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Originally Posted by Sentryduty

And right now the hamster wheel in my brain is spinning thinking about the prospect.

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PM sent.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Geez BD you were caught out red faced were you :madsmile:
Looks like Mr L E took offence at my saying he would have to do some work in getting his reloading underway me I do not give a rats rissole if he has taken his bat, ball and the wickets mind you and faded away also I stand by my statement I do not know just how good they are at reloading and I am not putting my backside out into the gunfire to get sued away because he says "But he told me that was what I had to do?".

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Actually I came to a forum of people who know far more about the rifle, its cartridge and their characteristics and history than I ever will, in good faith, to ask a simple question, and got an answer that settled the matter pretty quickly, as far as I'm concerned. You clearly want to find fault where none exists and I find that very strange and hostile.

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Originally Posted by martins8589

...I am waiting for a reamer to be made to finish my bump up dies...The reamer is being made of an original MKVII drawing.

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Would you be willing to share the drawing? I've searched but can only seem to find dimensions for the case.

It is not about finding fault it is in a world of litigation it is just not worth saying anything that may be construed as an instruction on what weight powder etc to use and so on then something happens gets to a he said she said. I brought lots of reloading books spent countless hours researching loads in them reading ballistic tables till my head spun on mid flight trajectories V's point blanks for the ranges we shot and studied terminal ballistics to eventually years later end up with a small portion of knowledge that allows me to confidently load my weapons up to what they are capable of all the while keeping in mind their age coupled with years of accumulated range testing and competitions. You cannot get anywhere unless you do the yardage like we all did I explained to you about same rifles from a factory being different animals and may not digest the same load equally giving the same accuracy. If you feel threatened and think I am brusque then I am sorry if you feel that way it was not the intent just the plain facts that to get somewhere sometimes the only way is getting on the horse and seeing where it takes you. And truly it can be a fascinating ride there is plenty to learn, I had a few fails in my loads especially with Win-748 the 303's hated it but that is life buy ~ try and see what goes for me it is AR 2209 that is works well but that's just my rifles others may find a different powder that works.

As it says at the top of the forum ... ;)

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Closing thread now, as I don't see where else it can go from here ... :cheers:

Regards,
Doug