RARE .22 Longbranch Trainer NOT a No.7

Need some help & info as i just saw this absolutely gorgeous .22 Long Branch. Un serialized
No.4 Not a No.7
receiver stamped
.22
Longbranch
1945
NO OTHER MARKINGS
No other markings in a beautiful Bright tiger striped stock. Unfired condition in its transit case with all .22 cleaning rods & brushes... Guy stated very RARE & NOT CHEAP... but i can not find any info in my books... his notes on the gun was 1 of 6 hes ever seen & made before the No7. I feel in love with it but not the price..... This would make a fantastic addition to my collection. i did not take any pictures out of respect & the owner could be on here... ;) Just looking for some to say JUMP on it or back away.. $3995

As always a few pictures are of great assistance in identifying the rifle. There's lots of CNo7 information in the "Knowledge Library" under "Canada".

Having said that the earliest CNo7 (Canadian) is 1944 with the receiver marked { .22" LongBranch 1944 } stacked in 3 rows. The marking for 1945 are quite different and would ask that you confirm exactly what's stamped on the receiver. No serial number generally is an indication that the rifle was assembled by somebody other than the factory...Armorer, shooting club, private individual. There are CNo7 Ordnance receivers available...at least in Canada...that have been built into rifle as few were every released for sale.

You should also check the bolt for a serial number on the back face of the bolt. If 1945 it should be 1LXXXX and have "LB" stamped near the firing pin hole. If the rear handguard is removed you should see more markings. Internal parts and sights also will be marked. Have a closer look and let us know what you see.

Highly figured stocks are very desirable. Generally these were set aside for special builds. Not seen any unmarked ones on CNo7's.

Rare to see transit chest and cleaning tools intact.

I'd get a bit more information before purchasing.

Ron (Canada)

on the receiver, its stack stamped
.22
Longbranch
1945

Just like that. No numbers on wrist band & no numbers on bolt. Not stamped No7 anywhere
Has a target rear site with peep hole. Seller stating special trainer & un numbered as it is NOT a Military purpose Rifle for combat...... she is sooooo beautiful & i cant find much info on it anywhere.... No bayonet lug on barrel either. NON Grooved upper wood either... the wood is stunning & never seen anything like it
I left the show... but my buddy is going today & may put deposit down...

there is a No7 on gunbroker now for $5000 & this unmarked one is way better...

Past postings have discussed a series of .22s put together by a Canadian using blank receivers with new markings from the close out auction at Long Branch. I don't remember details as to the new markings but they were different from the norm. Someone may remember. Just something to keep in mind.

With thanks to stencollector, refer to this MKL article in the Canada - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here)

Complete with over 100 detailed pictures, this is one of the best and most thorough write-ups I've encountered on the Internet, in regards to these rifles.

1944 C No.7 .22 Caliber Lee-Enfield Training Rifle (click here)

Regards,
Doug

Another classic case of buy the rifle, not the story here.........

The surplused CNo7 receivers I've seen were boxed (2 per box) and wrapped for long term storage. Boxes were brown cardboard and marked Montreal Ordnance and sold off by Crown Assets in the 70's. No serial numbers. These were used for repair and serial number of damaged rifle restamped. Post WW2 all assets were transfer to CA (Canadian Arsenals) who operated for many more years...mid 60's (I believe).

If you can get a picture of the left side butt socket it will tell the story.

CNo7 barrels never had bayonet lugs so that detail appears to be correct.

Handguards - both grooved and non grooved were used.

Is the left side of the mag marked "22" with the correct single shot follower.

Do you know wood species? I've seen some awesome highly figured birch stocks on Cno7. Fiddleback walnut is extremely rare.

Like to see some pictures before saying "jump on it"

Ron (Canada)

Certainly worth doing your homework, as much as like my .22 Trainers (they are addictive and cheap to run) that price is a bit eye watering.

The .22" marking overlapped into 1945 production, so while not particularly common, not really rare either, and I certainly would not give a premium for such a rifle with the receiver marked like that.

Lack of a serial number is an extremely good indication that the rifle was a post-factory assembled rifle. Often, the indicator is that the barrel is not indexed properly. If it is new unfired from the factory, is the SAL tag with the rifle?

The vast majority (I would suggest 99%) of the receivers that are available as replacements were from rifles that were torn down, the serial numbers scrubbed, and the area refinished. Not a lot of care was taken in the scrubbing, so you can usually feel the flat spot where the serial number was. As well, any high macro photo will show the difference between a sanded down area and the pimpling of the original.

For $3995, I would back away. I seriously doubt a new in the box Cno7 with the tags still on it would fetch that much (and I have one of those downstairs).

Not sure I am reading your initial post right: what makes it a number 4?

stencollector, just my uneducated wording as im more of a No. 4 collector... I have decided to walk away from it. Beautiful & pricey & with NO numbers not sure if i can even register it.

The Cno7 was a training version of the no4mk1*, and 80% of the no4 parts are identical on a Cno7.

Walking away is the right thing to do, although photos are always welcome. The rifle described in your post does not pre-date no7 production as that started in 1944. The lack of a serial number is a warning flag, and even if it is a factory production rifle (which I personally doubt), the price is still about double what it should be, assuming you are talking US dollars.

Here in Canada, I suspect the market value of a factory, in the chest, in the grease, un-issued rifle with it's tag and EIS, would fall into the $2500-$3000 Canadian $ (peso) range. I say suspect because they don't come up often enough to put a fixed price on them, and there will always be anomalies.

My apologies to the current owner of the rifle if he is on this board, and I would love to see some good photos of the rifle in question.

In other words......... It might not have No7 engraved on the side but if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck and swims like a duck, then guess what it is..........

My un-educated guess it is a post factory put-together using a 1945 dated no7 receiver with the type 1 marking. The marking as described is correct for 1944 production Canadian no7 rifles thru to early 1945. Photos of the serial number area would show if it is a scrubbed receiver or a un-serialized receiver. The scrubbed receivers are far more common.....I see 40 or more scrubbed vs un-serialized ones.

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Originally Posted by stencollector

..... Cno7 with the tags still on it ...

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This is excellent advice when available so that there is some providence ....

Attachment 71043Attachment 71044

The '44 date is a serial number scrubbed original receiver with CAL phosphate. The '46 is also a serial number scrubbed receiver that I dressed up and refinished with phosphate. Both rifles were built by myself using all original parts scrounged over the course of several years.

The serial area of the 46 is very nice, and almost discernible from an original. The one give-away is that the little LB is missing which would normally be above the serial number area. Even the un-serialised receivers still had that manufacturer mark.

When I give the lower prices for the scrubbed receivers, it is due to the lack of quality controls and the use of any Enfield part to complete the rifle. Very few of the garage workshops have the proper tools to tighten the barrel to the right spot or the knowledge to properly bed the wood, adjust the trigger pull, or even headspace for that matter. Pretty sure that doesn't apply to your work Brian, and as such I would expect one of yours to sell for more in the ballpark of a factory rifle.

I wanted to illustrate your comments about the scrubbed receivers in post #9. I sourced one of the bodies in Canada many years ago and then found another in Illinois later. I scrounged parts from a couple of LB No.4's I imported that were converted many years ago by parties unknown. I even visited Marstar in 2001, (what a feat!), and bought rear sight assemblies and Inglis pistol parts to complete projects I had on the bench at the time. I also imported a few complete C No.7's that were put together in Ontario by unknown builders. I always had to tune them up and especially install the rears sights properly as they were never right it seemed at the time. They were all good to go afterwards and targeted before sale. I never tried to market them as other than post service builds. I sold them for $800 or so over ten years ago. I also have a minty original dated '45 like the one posted by CODFan. I love those .22s!

---------- Post added at 10:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 PM ----------

I just looked at my '45 date rifle and it hasn't got a LB stamp on the left of the butt socket. It's sn. 0L5980.

Remember folks, it is Long Branch (two words) not Longbranch.

I missed this one by a few days 2 years ago.fantastic stock.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ynt29o21-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...vsmnf2xu-1.jpg

Years ago, I purchased two C No 7 receivers in their Montreal arsenal box. They have had their serial numbers scrubbed; at least as far as I can tell. I would be grateful for any comments or info as to why the receiversw were taken out of servie, scrubbed, and then stored.

Attachment 72958Attachment 72959Attachment 72960Attachment 72961

I have all the parts for assembling a C No 7 from one of these two receivers, including boltheads 0, 1, 2, and 3 from Marstar - also some years ago - all with their short firing pin. (didn't buy the 4, 5 or 6 sizes unfortunately), rear sight/spring/screw, front sight block, 22-marked mag and follower. I have some scrubbed LB boltbodies, and even have a completely unmarked, new boltbody (so is probably 1950s British). And an LB marked, but unused/unnumbered forearm, plus buttstock and handguards.

Just missing a barrel.....

I am unlikely to find one, and as I am an ex-pat Canuck down here in the US, importation is not possible. So looks like I need to have one made.

Beyond the obvious expense, which may be prohibitive, my problem is that I have not been able to find prints or specs for the C No 7 barrel.

If they are on this website - great! - please tell me where! Otherwise, if anyone has prints for a C No 7 barrel, please let me know! And any other comments about this would be welcomed as well, including any comment from the mods if there is a better forum to post this message.

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Originally Posted by FHG918

Just missing a barrel.....

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Stranger things, I'll bet someone here has one...BDL Ltd maybe?

No, unfortunately not Jim. I have two rifles I built scrounging parts for 10+ years. They are pictured on this thread. The barrels were installed on No.4's brought in over the 10 year heyday of my importing from Canada. Military surplus barrels are banned from importation since 2005 so finding and getting them here isn't doable under the current law. One of the scrubbed receivers I found in the 1990's in Ontario and the other I bought here in the USA from a Gent in Illinois.

Thanks guys. Brian - I had forgotten until reading your post that I had called you at BDL several years ago on this topic; obviously I have made no progress on the project! Just wondering if it is possible (with a budget of a few hundred dollars) to have a barrel made.

Can you direct me to the post with the pictures of the No7 rifles that you made?

Many thanks.

It's thread #15 on this list of postings. You could get a shot out No.4 barrel and have a liner installed. The liners can be obtained from Brownells. I'm not sure what it would cost but it would be a lot cheaper than having a new barrel made.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

have a liner installed.

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It would almost be correct too. Then a refinish and it'll look great.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FHG918

Years ago, I purchased two C No 7 receivers in their Montreal arsenal box. They have had their serial numbers scrubbed; at least as far as I can tell. I would be grateful for any comments or info as to why the receivers were taken out of service, scrubbed, and then stored.

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There was a shortage of spare Cno7 receivers in the supply system around 1960. It may well be that the people who bought spare parts did not envision the rifles remaining in service for 20 (and now 70) years. By that point in time Canadian Arsenals (Long Branch) was no longer making Enfield receivers. There was a modification instruction to use no4 receivers and convert them for use on Cno7s when required. Basically it involved drilling the hole and tapping it to the required #3 screw for the windage detent spring. I have copies of the modification instruction that I could post if someone really wanted to see it.

It was around that time that the Cdn military tore down Cno7 rifles and converted them into spare parts. My guess would be that they did it to alleviate the shortage of receiver parts. The scrubbing and refinishing of the receivers was un-usual. Normally, by the military manual, the numbers would be barred out so they would remain legible, and the serial number of the rifle being repaired would be applied nearby.

About the only real problem you would see with the Cno7 receivers was the chipping of the rail where the bolt head would enter. This would in time cause the bolt head to jump out of the track when the bolt was opened.

My thanks to Jim, Brian and stencollector. I did find posting #15 the photos of Brian's builds - sorry to be such a dud looking through the thread that I did not see it.

I appreciate the comments as to why the receivers were scrubbed and stored; the date on the box is August 1959 so matches the time mentioned. The receivers are drilled (and I assumed tapped!) for the screw to hold the rear sight spring - you can see this in photo.
Attachment 73007

I do have two 2-groove No4 barrels, one Long Branch and the other British with import stamps. Am thinking it would be a shame to alter the Long Branch by inserting a sleeve. Would have to turn off the bayonet and foresight lugs, although I would just have this done with the sleeve work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FHG918

Would have to turn off the bayonet and foresight lugs, although I would just have this done with the sleeve work.

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Well, if you refer to the book, you can see copies of the conversions with bayonet lugs remaining...like I say, almost correct. You wouldn't have the marks either, so why try to fool anyone? It'll still look great and work perfectly.

Thoughtful and sensible words of advice there BAR.

My thanks again to everyone! Keeping the lugs on a No4 barrel would be fine, of course. I was only thinking of a way to use the No 7 foresight block that I have been lucky enough to find.

Don't have my reference books in front of me. What are the differences in barrels between the Canadian No 7 and the British No 7? I seem to remember that the bolt bodies and heads are different, but not sure about the barrels.

Thanks

Brian B