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Took the No.8 out and about one in every ten shots didn't fire. Some ammo was much worse (3 in 4). I assume that there are some tougher rims on some ammo than others but seems that something is amiss anyway. Obviously the bolt assembly is the first place to look, but does anyone have a similar experience, and what was the remedy?
Perhaps the internals of the bolt have gunked up a bit, weak mainspring I always de-cock the bolts when they are not being used, if the ammo that does fire groups acceptably just stick with that one does the firing pin have a consistent strike on the rims or are some shallower could be a head space problem but I would start with the mainspring. I think the firing assembly on the 8 is a 2 piece affair maybe check the protrusion to see if it is correct.
I am sure others will chime in to assist.
It's called 'diminished force of blow with the striker' - in the case of the No8 - transferring insufficient force onto the firing pin. That means that the striker spring is weak and the weights need to be checked OR it could be bunged up with crud. Striker spring weights = same as No4. Striker spring weights are not the samne as pull-off weights don't forget
I'll try a spruce up / decrud with brakcleen first. Will report back.
Weak or clogged striker spring, as detailed above, or a buildup of wax and other fouling around the chamber/rear of barrel area. It's a well known problem with the No.8 rifle. Clean the breech area thoroughly of all wax and fouling and give it another go. Unscrew the bolt head (watch you don't lose the striker and its return spring) and rinse it in petrol to dissolve any built up crud.
It could be the problem we found on the cadet range once, which was an entire batch of Eley Standard delivered without any primer in the rim...!
Quote:
Originally Posted by newcastle
If you don't find any problems with the bolt assembly rotate the round a bit so the FP doesn't strike the same spot and see if they go. Works for me about 90% of the time. Misfires caused by gaps in the priming mix or none at all seem to happen with annoying regularity in some lots of .22LR ammo. Seems quality has really taken a nose dive in the last 10 or so years.Quote:
Originally Posted by LondonEnfield
Yep, first thing to try, different ammo, it might be as simple as that ... we all know what .22lr can be like sometimes. The worst I ever used was Remington Thunderbolt, I swear it was loaded with black powder, just terrible stuff!Quote:
Originally Posted by LondonEnfield
I agree, inconsistent ignition, wax coated projectiles that gum up the action, and the residue is excessive.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
I actually found other types of ammo that failed 3 in 4 shots and one type that didn't fire at all.
Lot to lot uniformity of modern .22LR ammo is horrible, especially with U.S. made stuff. Rim thickness and diameter can vary quite a bit from round to round in the same box. Inconsistent ignition is a big problem with some. Also propellant quality and charge weight seem to vary with some lots. Every so often there'll be one or two in a magazine full that are so weak the bullet barely makes it out of the barrel. Never had it happen personally but I've heard tell of some that apparently had no propellant at all and stuck the bullet about an inch up the bore. I bought a 100 rd box of Remington years ago and found two that had no bullet or propellant. The cheesy stuff really gives the auto loaders fits, not strong enough to cycle the action.Quote:
Originally Posted by newcastle
As far as Remington T-Bolt goes I've had good lots and bad lots. Same with Winchester, Federal and CCI. But whats odd is I've never has any of the above mentioned problems with .22 Magnum ammo.
The BIG problem with the No8 was down to the TA and Cadet Forces DS/instructors. They would insist on perpetuating the old urban myth that the .22" waxed ammo meant that the rifle didn't need cleaning, would clean itself, would clean your shoes and boots if you left them neatly in the corridor, make the bed, sweep the floor and.......... You get my drift here chaps. All a load of old bollo......, crap of course. While the barrel wouldn't rust as such or corrode the rifle still needed to be cleaned of all the gunge around the breech and the bore rodded through every week or so AND examined for bulges.
While my son was in the CCF at his school and for many, many years afterwards me and the TA Permanent Staff WO from the training team used to spend a day going around the CCF's and ACF's (and some of the small TA's) by arrangement and sorting them out, CHS, and test the FPP occasionally. Once you're on top of them all they were trouble free. The only trouble was guess what.............? A lot of the DS used to know more about the maintenance and inner workings of the trigger mechanism than me and 'Mac' McGxxxxxxxy. Happy days!
...much like the local cadet corps who are (were anyway, don't know that they have firearms anymore) taught to cock and snap the C.No7 repeatedly onto an empty chamber to demonstrate that they are empty... It took a lot of cringing, begging, cajoling and crying to convince the staff instructors to modify their drill...Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
In the "civilian world" where people have to repair their own (or borrowed) property, the first thing anyone who deals with rimfire is taught in my experience is how potentially damaging an inertial firing pin is to a rimfire chamber...
Foolishly perhaps, I had previously wondered how anything could mechanically go wrong with a C.No7 which would force the unit to send the rifle back for cannibalization and conversion to deactivated status...
That was still the drill when I was young cadet, nearly 20 years since I fired a C.No7 now that I think of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Enfield
The Daisy 853C air-rifle became the local Corp level trainer and competition gun, I purchased one a few years ago for nostalgia and basement shooting, as I managed to make it to provincial level finals once or twice as a youth. However my scores of 94-96 were well bested by a number of 98-100 performers. Wish I had the skill and patience I have now with the eyesight I had then.
The C.No7 was kept for summer course/camp ranges and the C7A1 was fired during certain Army Cadet Leader Instructor courses, I wonder if that has been retained or if it has been considered too aggressive for cadets.
I have to say though, I have only rarely had an issue with CCI mini mags, it seems to be very consistent stuff.
A good quality ammunition is the bedrock of accuracy and reliable function in any firearm, but .22LR based firearms seem to suffer the most.
Believe it or not, snapping an empty chamber is still part of the UK unload drill for the No.8. That said, the firing pin protrusion isn't long enough to peen the chamber, thankfully.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Enfield
Also, if you have a Chiappa M1, don't dry fire the thing. Ever. My, er, friend, did that once. Then my, er, friend, discovered the butter-soft chamber face had been peened over just enough to stop the rifle from cycling. Ended up swapping the damn thing for 100rds of 303 just to get rid of it.
Sounds like your "friend" learnt that one the hard way, we have all been there (professional Armourers aside!), shame about the Chiappa M1, it certainly looked the part, even down to original M1 stocks fitting, just a shame the Italians make them out of tin foil!!Quote:
Originally Posted by LondonEnfield
When I first got my No2 mkIV* .22 it would not extract the empty cases. After inspecting it, I found that the rim of the chamber had been peened by the firing pin; causing the case to jam on extraction. Obviously someone had been dry firing it. Fortunately the firing pin was still intact. Some careful tidying up of the chamber rim and it works a treat. Luckily the No8's bolt heads have a shoulder that prevents this problem.
Well Newcastle, while the others are happily reminiscing about old times in the virtual bar:D, perhaps we could get back to your problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by newcastle
The strikers on 22s have very limited travel, compared with a centerfire rifle. Anything that limits or slows the travel will contribute to your problem. Tenths of a millimeter matter. I have had this effect very recently, and suggest the following sequence of operations:
1) Crud build-up in the bolt-face recess. This effectively holds the cartridge base a wee bit forwards of the bolt-face, thus reducing the effective travel. Clean the recess thoroughly.
2) Crud build-up in the extractor recess. Over the years, dirt gets rammed in by the extractor when the bolt is closed, until the the extractor fails to snap over the rim properly. Although you will normally notice this when extraction becomes unreliable, already at a slightly lower level the plugged recess will prevent the bolt from closing up as tight as it could - thus effectively reducing the travel.
3) Crud build-up within the bolt body, often semi-fossilized grease that has been there since the rifle was last serviced or put into store (decades ago?), which prevents the striker from going forwards as far as it should. You will need to dismantle, clean and reassemble the bolt. Here you will have to refer to the expertise of Peter Laidler on this forum - it's all in there somewhere!
4) The same crud build-up within the bolt body can slow the striker so much that the impact on the cartridge rim is insufficient to cause ignition. The effect is the same as a weak spring. But much more likely.
You notice that I do not mention striker length. That is because it is very unlikely that this is the cause, unless the rifle has been Bubba-ed. If so, then you will have to ask Peter for advice, as spare strikers for a No. 8 must by now be unobtainium.
Check out 1) to 4). If the trouble persists, simply pick the ammo that works.
BTW. My No.8 doesn't like any kind of hotted-up ammo, like Stinger, Swartklip etc. Some of this "Xtra" stuff won't even chamber properly unless I scrape off the wax. It shoots best with RWS competition ammo - a rifle with expensive tastes! But with the good stuff, it reaches bench-rest accuracy (as already published on the Range Reports forum). A No.8 is potentially so extraordinarily good, that you should just not waste any time or money on unreliable ammo.
Great info ( and memories) from all. Personally I got my marksman badge In the cadets at Hexham base in the early 1980's with No.2 rifles.
Returning to this thread. After carrying out all the cleaning is could on the bolt went to the range yesterday . First two shots, failure to fire. Next 25 or so no problems and then roughly one in every eight shots was an F2F. All types of ammo. I have pictures of the bases of fired cartridge cases from the #8 and my No. 2, which I have to upload. I was wondering if the #8 was hitting the case too far from the rim. Have to post and compare. Otherwise I guess I might be in the market for new spring or trying to alter firing pin protrusion.
As the armorer suggested way back, try the spring first before altering the FP...
Yup. Unfortunately I do not know anything about striker spring weights, how to measure / assess etc etc
I think you'll find if you replace the spring with one you can likely glean here you can forget your problems.
Get a hard copy of the EMER/AESP's. It includes everything you're ever likely to want to know.
As in EVERYTHING Peter? Or just the important stuff in life?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
NEARLY everything Jim. Because when you're 19 or so, you already know everything there is to know about life in general! The EMER's just fill in the little gaps....... My son who is 24 is amazed by just how little I know.
Tell him to hurry up and sort the world out then, before he gets old like us and realizes he doesn't know anything any more...
oddly enough i have the complete AESPs in pdf formnat as Im tyring to add som pages in for gareth before sending to badger. And i never even thought of reading them - what a dolt!!
I was about to say, you've got the complete manuals already! :p
From AESP 1005-L-203-522, which is the repair instruction manual:
On firing pins, it says:Quote:
h. With bolt head, firing pin and spring removed and the bolt held securely in a vice, the strength of the mainspring is as follows:
(1) With cocking piece held in approximate cocked position - first movement of cocking piece rearward is 13 to 15 ½. lbf.
(2) Fired position - first movement of cocking piece rearward is 10 ½ to 13 lbf.
Later on it states the protrusion is to be between 0.038" max and 0.034" min, with a radius of 0.045".Quote:
If protrusion is excessive reduce the length by stoning the point, ensuring that the radius is maintained. If protrusion is insufficient exchange the firing pin.
It also gives the spec for the striker spring: 31 coils of 0.048" diameter spring wire, wound either left or right handed, external diameter 0.358", free length 3.57".
And in case anyone's worried about this, there are 8 sizes of bolt head available to correct CHS.
Is the spring the same as a rifle No. 4 spring??? Or do I have to search like crazy if I need to replace?
I have a feeling in my bones that it is the standard No4 striker spring, compressed slightly more within the shorter bolt body. The man that designed the No8 trigger mechanism a) really needed to get out a bit more or b) had too much time on his hands
Ooooops, sorry. No8 striker spring, B1/CR 3312 is shorter than the No4 striker spring, B1/CR 441
Another niggling little problem with the No8 was that the 6BA screws that hold the bolt head catch and spring in place are prone to rust and shear off in the body. Have been known to be virtually impossible to drill out/repair.
Nice...just what you'd have wanted to encounter...Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler