WWII No4T SCOUT REGIMENT TELESCOPE MKII – EXTRA EYEPIECE

I have two of these scopes but the one I am seeking further knowledge about is one with an extra eyepiece. I cannot find any past discussions/threads on this subject.
In regard to this one the scope is marked:

TELE.SCT.REGTS MKIIs
H.C.R. & Son Ltd
OS 126 GA
No. 11884
/I\

The extra eyepiece is simply marked “HIGH”.
Both leather cases and straps are the same colour and in very good condition but the locking straps and the buckles do show considerable wear. No markings to any of the cases or straps that I can see.
The scope itself (compared to my other well worn scope) is in excellent condition with the brass draw sections operating easily and smoothly whilst still maintaining their dark colouring (think that is original colouring) which made the photo of the markings difficult.
Thanks for any info and any idea of a value for insurance purposes.

Smith3006,
If my memory serves me right the HIGH lens is 30X rarely seen as the standard issue 8X was sufficient for most applications. However, lads used to use Bushnell and other branded telescopes in green or matt black in preference due to the application of the 7 rules of concealment which sadly the old shiny brassed Broadhurst & Clarkson didn't do very well:

Shape, shine, shadow, silhouette, sound, speed and surroundings.

The original issue scout regiment telescope normally just comes with the 8X eyepiece, original sun shield extension, and also the anti glare sliding eyepiece shield.

The TEL SCT REGT MkIIs did not have a second eye piece. The telescope it replaced in service, the Signalers (and GS)Telescope had the two lenses. The sig. telescope had a low and a high powered lens, whatever one not in use was in a leather case attached to the strap.
Here is a link to the MKL entry with the full stripping and maint. instructions for the TEL SCT REGT.

https://www.milsurps.com/content.php...tion-Manual%29

Here is the Tel Sig. MkIV with the two lenses
Attachment 71527

And here is a couple of TEL SCT REGT's with a TEL SIG MkIV. Note the main differences, the Signalers is a little longer and heavier, and it's case is made up of two caps retained on the strap with the case for the second lens. The Sct Regt case is separate, and a complete case.
Reading the link above you will see the Sct Regt is a 20 power scope. Cannot recall off the top of my head what the power the two lenses make the Sig.
Attachment 71528

I think that the standard shuttered eyepiece made the normal Sct Regt telescope x20. The Sct Regt tele didn't come with an extra eyepiece on the strap - or anywhere.

That extra High/Low eyepiece was from the old Telescope GS but while the old GS telescopes were in service into the 80's or so......... I mean the 1980's........., I never saw a HIGH eyepiece. Stand to be corrected of course but...............

Q. The scope is marked as a Mk2 and has a removable eye piece does your Mk2 have a removable eye piece.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bindi2

Q. The scope is marked as a Mk2 and has a removable eye piece does your Mk2 have a removable eye piece.

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stay tuned, pictures coming...

Attachment 71547

Attachment 71548

Ok, from the pics.... The two eyepiece lens sets for the GS (Signallers) telescope are an assembled unit. The Sct Regt eyepiece lens group is separate to the cap- sliding into the rear of the tube until it stops on the rim, and the cap screws down to lock it in.

I unscrewed the two lens sets out of the GS caps... the Sct Regt cap is made the same internally with a thread to accommodate the GS lens sets. The main differences in the caps being the GS are marked "Low" and High" where the Sct Regt is different on the rear and not marked. The Sct Regt has a tinted filter that slides across the opening. One of the GS caps has a similar tinted shade, the other has a protective blanking plate that slide over the opening.

I tried changing the caps over and found the threads at the rear of the small tube on the two scopes are the same. The lenses can be swapped, and do work in each others scopes.

It would seem that although the rear lens group itself had been changed in its set up for the Sct Regt telescope, at least the rear cap from the GS was utilised in the new telescope. Being that the bodies of the two scopes are different diameters and the tubes are different lengths (the GS are a little longer) I measured the diameter of the tubes themselves. The small tube is a bare spot bigger in the Sct Regt, and the second and third tubes are smaller than those in the GS. That would tell me that there would probably be no other parts interchangeable other than the rear caps.....

I am wondering if the OP's scope had belonged to a range shooter who aquired the extra lens to suit a specific purpose....?

Anything I missed?

Yes... edit to add; PLEASE NOTE

Anyone who is considering working on/ restoring any of these types of scopes, please read Peter's post (post #15) WRT compatibility of parts. It is quite likely that the eyepiece threads on the two scopes I have pictured here being interchangeable without working on them is the exception rather than the rule.

Son I have no idea if you have missed any thing I would like to know every thing you do. :bow: So it is possible just to slide the High power eye piece into any Mk2 scope and use it no screws no tools just change and go. :thup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bindi2

Son I have no idea if you have missed any thing I would like to know every thing you do. :bow: So it is possible just to slide the High power eye piece into any Mk2 scope and use it no screws no tools just change and go. :thup:

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Mate, I just grabbed a couple of telescopes out of the cupboard in the next room and pulled them down on the kitchen bench. Took a fitters attitude to it checked everything relevant.

Trust me, I was surprised about the interchangeability of the bits. I would have swore they were different from scratch. I suppose any lens group... (hang on, time to start using correct terminology here).... "eyepiece cell" that fits can work due to the slide- focus being almost infinite in these telescopes. Yes, the eyepiece cell with the eyepiece and shutter (attached in one unit) from the GS telescope will screw straight into the TEL SCT REGT and give good vision. I don't know why you would bother with the HIGH eyepiece cell though. IIRC the HIGH cell gave only x22 and the TEL SCT REGT was x20. The eyepiece cell from the SCT REGT will go into the GS and the eyepiece will screw on to retain it. This was checked between a 1918 RJ Beck GS MkIV and a HCR SCT REGT.

Peter of course will know much more having had to deal with them as a paid maintainer, rather than a fiddling collector like me. Interested in any other's thoughts and experiences too.

Son, that is brilliant and as Bindi2 says such knowledge and know how. It took several readings of each post to get it through my old finance mind (didn't inherit any of my fathers "fitter & turner" skills) until the penny dropped.

Thanks so much for taking the time over the dissection and photos let alone the text. As I said it took a little to sink in but I went and pulled my units apart and the construction of the additional eyepiece is exactly as you described. Whilst I had previously done so I hadn't seen the difference. :thup:

Interesting when you consider how many companies in both wars were producing these scopes to such a consistant standard, with in effect a 2” objective, and a magnification quoted in some military manuals as 20x, and in Part 42 of the ‘Notes on Repairs to Fire Control Instruments’ 1941 written down as 22x with greater sizes being developed post war.

Broadhurst Clarkson Ltd
Ross London Ltd
Watson Ltd
Ryland Ltd
R&J Beck Ltd
W.Ottway London Ltd
E.K.Cole Ltd

Anymore?

Attachment 71551Attachment 71552Attachment 71553Attachment 71554Attachment 71555

There's five, a couple not mentioned above... These are just the Sct Regt, do you want the GS as well?

B& C co,
Taylor Taylor and Hobson
AOC
Ottway
Beck
Dallmeyer

These from my records and research back when I was buying and selling a few...

Yes many of those already famous for their production in binoculars of course. Photo number two, of the Broadhurst & Clarkson one looks like they did the etching by hand on some soft brass.

This is a very interesting thread. Scopes aint scopes Sol. :super:

I'll dig up markings pics for the GS scopes I have on file and post them here later.

Here they are, in order as above

Attachment 71561

Attachment 71563Attachment 71562

Attachment 71568

Attachment 71564

Attachment 71565

Attachment 71567Attachment 71566

Both the Sct Regt (S-R) and GS telescope work on exactly the same optical principal of course. When you've had a load of Sct Reg eyepieces on your bench you'll find that there are two types.
1) There's one with a single internal thread that screws directly onto the draw. In doing so, it clamps the erector cell tightly into the drawer, between the eye piece and the rear end of the drawer.
2) There's a second sort that is a hybrid that fits the GS AND S-R scope. This has TWO internal threads. One thread acts exactly as 1) above to screw onto the drawer. The other thread accepts one or other of the separate low/high magnifying lenses.

So by default, if you have the DUAL internal threaded eye piece (at 2) above) then it will accept the two magnifying lenses of the GS scope. But that's not all. While they are all optically the same, they were not all manufactured to the same mechanical spec. So you mix mechanical/threaded components from the different manufacturers at your peril.

It is for this reason that the only spare parts that we had available were from B&C. And even then, threads didn't interchange! New parts always had to be accurately fitted and threads chased on a lathe with a thread file. It is because of this that only the B&C scopes were the norm.

Incidentally, the S-R scope was much different internally mechanically and far superior to the build of the GS scope. I won't go into it.

Added later...... While the eye piece was made sort-off interchangeable by accident (?), I can't think of anything else that was fully interchangeable between the S-R and GS scope. The erector cell sort-of was by default if you had the two threaded eye piece but the field lens assy wasn't. The OG lens from the S-R was adaptable to the GS counter cell housing (or the OG lens housing) if it was stopped down as I seem to remember.

Interesting.......

If you can find copies of the Scientific Instrument Manufacturers Association of G.B. handbook it lists a lot of useful information about the companies who were members in a given year. I have a 1952 copy I picked up by chance and have never seen another for sale anywhere. Astronomical or university libraries might be good places to look.

Almost nothing left of these companies now of course. Ottoway, (4th photo above) who claimed to be established in 1640, making them probably the oldest in the country are long gone, the site of their former Orion Works in Ealing is now a shabby looking "business park", still called Orion.

Some companies didn't bother to join the Association: Aldis for example, at least not that year.

Of those shown here, only Broadhurst, Clarkson & Fuller are still around, though only as a retail outlet, AFAIK. When I visited in 1987 they still had an older fitter/optician doing repairs, but even then he told me it was pretty much all finished.

Dallmeyer, Stanley, Taylor, Taylor & Hobson, R & J Beck, some going back to the 1700s, all p------d away.

Ironically some of the best optical sand in the world exists at Lochaline in Scotland. All that was missing was the will and vision to maintain the industry. That said, even before WWI the lack of scientific method in the control of glass manufacture and the lack of serious research on new glasses allowed the continental makers to take more and more of the market. There's a good book on Chance Bros. or Pilkington & Co. that lays all that out.

There were some G.S. or Signaller's telescopes made in Toronto in WWI by an outfit who marked their products "CONSOL", which I assume was short for something like "Consolidated Optical". My guess is it was an assemblage of smaller outfits who got together to bid for contracts. The quality seems to be very good from the few pieces I've seen.

About the only book on the subject is "The Optical Munitions Industry in Great Britain, 1888–1923", by Steven Sambrook. The Optical Munitions Industry in Great Britain, 18881923 (Studies in Business History) eBook: Stephen C Sambrook: Amazon.ca: Kindle Store

Here is the above book or the thesis it was based on, available for download: The optical munitions industry in Great Britain 1888-1923 - Enlighten: Theses

I see Pilkingtons was sold out to a smaller Japanese glass company in 2006! Pilkington - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe the Panama Papers would have something on that.

Just saw another "Tel. Signaller's MkIII also G.S." by "Consol, Toronto, 1915" advertised for a ridiculous sum. Missing the objective shade, objective replaced (broken original included), sans case, sans leather, sans everything.

See also here: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=17789

Just a pic of my scout scope (Maker?) the leather is in really good condition but I do have a question for you chaps the carrying case is this grey/blue color.
I read somewhere on this site it was the air force color applied is this true all replies are appreciated. TIA

Surpmil, I was moved to buy a copy of Sambrook's book after reading your thread above. Most interesting, though a little dry for reading cover to cover! I would certainly advise anyone interested to download the thesis, as my paperback copy of the book was very expensive - I suspect printed to order. However, I'm a bit old fashioned & when I buy a book I like it to have pages I can turn!

ATB.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Just a pic of my scout scope (Maker?) the leather is in really good condition but I do have a question for you chaps the carrying case is this grey/blue color.
I read somewhere on this site it was the air force color applied is this true all replies are appreciated. TIA

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RAF Regiment perhaps, a la Capt. C. Shore?

Peacetime military amusements: "if in doubt paint it"?

Speaking of these telescopes, I picked up a few NOS lenses from an estate full of surplus oddments recently. There are two lenses 2.682"/68.3mm dia. that are a close fit to each other on one surface. With my Geneva Lens Measure from the same estate, they measure +0.5 & -2.33(approx) and +2.0 & +0.75. Assembled thickness of the doublet is 0.52"

I suppose these could be from a TSR/Sig/GS type or even a REL Telescope, Observing, Snipers, but I don't feel like taking mine apart to find out!

There's a cemented doublet as well, 1.214"/30.86mm dia., 0.553"/14.07mm thick, +6.0 on one side and +2.5 on the other.

I'll measure my new lens OG sets and confirm during the week. But the radius of the concave and convex mating curvatures is very close. And those figures don't seem to agree. The way we used to match up accidentally mismatched sets is to put a lick of spit in the concave part and place the convex part in. The spit will spread fully in a matched lens set

Could be I need more practice with the lens measure, but could also be it's US/NS!

Here's some tangible info at last on the Consolidated Optical Co. of Toronto, Ontario. An envelope from 1911 and an advert from 1916. Notice the reference to their manufacturing for the Canadian military. They changed addresses between those years, so probably wartime expansion.

Some more about CONSOL here: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=17789