What was the rarest of the " General Issued" in the U.S. model 1903 family? N.M's, snipers DCM guns excluded-SDH:D
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What was the rarest of the " General Issued" in the U.S. model 1903 family? N.M's, snipers DCM guns excluded-SDH:D
An original rod bayonet M1903 would be my vote.
I don't know if this fits in your definition of 'general issue' but I'd say the air service rifle...
the trench modified 1903, is one of the rarest, or the M1922 in 22 Hornet, NBA sporter, any of the heavy barreled military 03,s.
or any 1903 variant under serial number 5..
1922, in Cal, 22 hornet..nice serial number as well..i was told once by a so called expert, that this rifle isnt that rare,,lol, how many rifles do you see with serial number 3??let alone one in 22 hornet.
Beautiful rifle Chuck. I take it you sold it at a profit?:D
thanks, well yes, ya gotta suport your toy habbit somehow, that rifle is in a museum collection, in Nevada the last time i talked to the new owner.
i have a rule, though i am a collector, and a gunsmith, i dont own any weapon that i cant or wont shoot.
like having a super model for a girlfriend that you dont want to mess up..
id ride em like i stole em.
iv owned and worked on a few rare examples of the 1903 rifle, and have my collection down to a nice lot, from 80 or so rifles down to about 20 1903 variants.
i personally like the NS receivered SA,s and low number RIAs the best.
i feel the same way about the other hobbies i have, bikes, guns, and trucks,
i race vintage MX, and race a restored 1967 Husqvarna 360 Viking..a real one, not a cheesy made up POS.
and get grief for it every time i take it out..it was made to race, and thats what ill do with it. when it breaks, i fix it, and race it harder..
just like my guns, they were made to shoot, and most were made as a battle rifle, and thats what they should do...shoot..!!
1903's up here mostly consist of: 03's, 03/MK1's/a few 03 modified's / A3's & what I suspect as lot A4 clones. As for variants of the exotic type there maybe a few owned by high end collectors, but I think most came the way of surplus pieces and assemblies put together when the border and our governments weren't so anal about law abiding gun owners. There is a little interest in 03's up here (me being a big fan) because they weren't the rifle our fathers & Grandfathers used in war, the Enfield wins out.
By the way, I have five motorcycles in the garage and a very understanding wife. Two of them are a KX500 & a SX250. Not vintage, only the rider some days...:beerchug:
Ok sdh, whats the answer?
I guess I have to clear this up just a little, DCM guns are out, they were not general issued as were the sniper variants, I'm grouping all ISSUED M1903's and their variations to the end of WW II that were issued to the regular solders into this question.
I also just dropped a hint, Come on guy's I know one of you guys gotta know :madsmile:
DCM sales were of issued 1903,s and 1903A3,s , not just target rifle,s..
thousands of A3,s were sold to NRA members through the DCM.
other rifles sold as surplus, 1903,s ect, were sold through ,mail order, Army surplus stores, sporting good stores ect.
not many are true bring back, that in itself is a rare item, a bring back US arm with papers, id say thats one of the rare ones.
also sold, through the DCM and Camp Perry were standard service rifles, these were rifles that were issue rifles, to shoot in the standard service rifle class.
or labled {special target} a standard service rifle that was star guaged, and had the receiver rails polished.
they arent that rare, but one with sales papers is, i had a chance at a large lot of Remington 1903,s that were still in the grease bags, and all had the redtstripe everyone is drooling over these days.
if i remember right 400.00 each was the price at 10 count..didnt have that kinda cash at the time.
i would say, the rarest, service 1903 rifle would be a true Marine issue 03 with papers to prove it, in 80% or better shape.
Nick Ferris has such a rifle, and it is a Gem for sure.
about 90% of the US military rifles on the market or collections was sold as surplus through the gov, at one time. or it would be a stolen gun, or a war trophy with papers, a gun smuggled back is a stolen gun, no matter how you look at it..unless it came with the war trophy papers issued.
another rare Gem , would be a 1903 in 30-03 {non RB} in its original trim, and mint shape.
iv seen one in my life for sale at a local gunshop for 1200.00 about 10 years ago, i tried to dig up the money, but , by the time i did, it was already gone.
i do belive Nick has that rifle as well.
Chuck your a breath away, but the Marine issued guns wouldn't necessarily a particular version they had S.C's as well as the Rem's in there stash However you drove a good point on the DCM stuff they did indeed distribute Previously "Issued" ares as well as rifles supplied to target community. This question is not intended to include ANY target version available from the DCM including but not limited to the stargaged versions, N.M. or re-barreled w/stargage, M1/22's M2/22's, hornets, prototypes, snipers rigs, Springfield sporters, M1922 or M1922 I.M. 64,000 numbered 03's, NRA rigs or 1903A4, Hmm did I forget any? This isn't a trick question, its very straight forward, if you go by the numbers, which variation would be the rarest? Not the most valuable, not the best shooter, not the prettiest, heck not even the strangest finish, just the rarest by the numbers. Give it a shot, I'll let you know this weekend, Go for it dude's,-Steve
soo, i guess this would be a in your opinion question then...?ask this same question in the CSPs 1903 forum and see what reponce you get, a few the guys that regular post in the forum, wrote the books you see on the shelves,
John Beard, Clark Campbell, and others, every one would have a different opinion of what the rarest 1903 issued rifle would be, as we all collect, and like different variantions of the same rifle.
The 03 used by Sgt. York.:super:
I'm strictly basing this question on production numbers as you may see tomorrow if its not guessed by then. I know of at least three members of CSP that should nail this down in a hurry! Hint: Think change-SDH
with over 15 million 1903,s made by SA and 400thousand RIA made, the RIA would be the more rare of the 2 makers.
anything else wouldnt fit in your guidelines.,.how bout getting to the point??
In the beginning of WW II Rock Island sent its equipment up to Remington to produce guns, starting with serial #3,000.000. These guns were exactly like the R.I. minus the finger groove, they produced well under 50,000 before having changes approved, such as stampings for the upper bands, wire bolt lug replacements, R.I. rear sight an most important a hole "NOT" drilled through the tang of the receiver. These are the rarest known issued rifles of that family. If you have one congradulations.
The most hotly debated is a "pre" war time 1903A1 which would have no slots cut for the rear A3 hand guard and a circle p with inspectors marks, not a DCM gun. I have one but its NIB and appears not to have been issued. I was offered $5K for it over 10 years ago and turned it down, pics supplied upon request. But this version has never been proved out-Steve D. H.
well, some flaws in your info, they used the blind hole, on Remington 1903,s until mid production, then drilled it all the way through. i have some examples if you like, the first 20 or so Remingtons, had no serial numbers, and no makers marks as well.
Remington used milled parts all the way through production, they replaced the parts that broke with stamped A3 parts, as they needed them, later in production, Remington used Zamak aloy to make the milled parts, trigger guard, upper band, buttplate ect, they broke easy, and were replaced.
the term 1903A1 is thrown around too easy to any rifle shoved in a C stock.
starting at serial number 1million20051 and up could be a genuine A1, and like the NM is only a A1 if made that way, and sold by the DCM as a 1903A1,
i have just about complete list of the rifles sold as a 1903A1 by the US Gov,
for the record, not many Remingtons saw isssued combat service, most were sent to other countrys England, New Zealand ect, some were used in Navy ship yards, and other security areas, thats why you find so many nice Remington 03,s
another thing i notice, most true 1903 collectors, dont care about the Remington 03, for the reasons listed above,
i however love the Remington 03, and have seen and held one of the model Remington 03,s made with RIA stuff, owned by a local collector, Nick Ferris, he had it on display at the Colorado Collectors show a few years ago.
Mr Ferris has done a few books on RIA and M1917 Enfields.
id like to see some good pics of the unfired 1903A1 you have...:}
FYI: York used a M1917 Enfield...:}
Sorry mate, Remington M1903s were originally manufactured with grasping groove stocks. Actual usage of stamped components occured late in 1942. Not sure what you mean by wire bolt lug replacements.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdh1911
A very early Remington:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tandard-42.jpg
Here's a close up of the serial number
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tandard-43.jpg
Another pair of early Remingtons, still in cosmoline:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tandard-44.jpg
went to a small show this morning, just a quick walk through, and i saw no less then 4 remington 03,s
and i wasnt looking that hard.
id like to see more pics of your 03,s Dan, i had a chance at some redstripe 03,s still in the bag,
wished i had the extra cash back then.
You are indeed the owner of the lowest production issued gun! The blind hole was a first run only and were the stock bolts w or w/o fingergrooves. As I;m sure you know, Remington made a formal request to upgrade the design with stampings etc. Later they re-designed it into the 03A3.
If a gun from 1,2 mil on has an A1 stock it is indeed a DCM gun, not general issued, they would not have the proper stampings and the complete gun should be stamped under the wool line with the 64,000 stocking #. The one I have is not and is complete with the circle P and SPG/SA, very rare, but not issued. It does not have the stock #'s or anything, but, has never been in circulation. It came directly out of Ft Benn. where it had been sitting in a room since the 1930's, set aside for scope testing where it was not used, I also have one N.M. that was used for scope testing and was verified for me by Bill Brophy and a few other fairly knowledgeable folks.
Your guns, the "1st" run Remingtons are indeed the rarest "issued" 03's-Steve
Chuck, here are a few more for you:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tandard-47.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tandard-48.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tandard-49.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tandard-50.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tandard-51.jpg
They have NO proof act stamps. They are "Red Star" rifles, and I have copies of the original MOD release paperwork.
3003744 spent some time in NZ:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tandard-52.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tandard-53.jpg
Those are some nice Remingtons, Could you show pics of the tangs? SDH
I just moved, and I have to locate my camera... it is in one of the boxes. Regarding the tangs on my Remingtons...
3003744 Not drilled NZ LL
3026063 Not drilled Brit LL
3042584 Drilled Brit LL
3044044 Not drilled Brit LL
3065710 Drilled
My other two Remingtons are 3169752 and 3170071 (my shooter)... taken in totality, they make a nice study of the decline of craftsmanship during wartime.
In my collection I have two original 1919 manufactured Rock Island M1903s, including a 1919NM and 3003744 is not much different.
nice looking lot, wish id kept some of the early rifles iv had over the years.
Gratuitous Remington photo... It is all still out there!
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tandard-58.jpg
Yes, that is a dozen lend lease Remington M1903s, in cosmoline, straight from M.O.D.
P.S. They are not mine.
I have made a mistake that may or not may make a difference, the sight base on the type one Remintons came with a grooved rear sight base as found on the origianal Rock Islands as well as a milled trigger guard, I have heard but never seen occasionally marked stocks with the RI from Rock Island on the very front flat end of the stock The type ones were produced from November 1941 to December 1941 with a total of 1,272 were produced, The first modification was to the stock being the removal of the finger grooves in April of 1942. These rifles were made to be issued to the troops, not the public If you have more than one of these true type one Remington 03's all I can say is your about as lucky a man I've ever incountered. From all the information I have read over the years states there were many requests from Remington to up-grade specs in early production because the tooling from Rock Island was in **** poor condition and not time effective. I've collected these rifles since 1976 and have only seen two of the true type ones', both were being sold as just plain old Remingtons. I bought them both, trading one for a M97 trench gun and keeping the other one until my son got ill and I had to sell the bulk of the collection.
The DCM sold a great deal of A1 replacement stocks#D1836 (and a whole host of other parts) specifically for the 03 up-grades to the public. They aslo built complete rigs (stock, target and about everything else between) also for sales to the public. DCM guns are usually identified by a #C64,112 or C64,114 stamped onto the barrel or receiver assembly. The stock replacement is sometimes marked with the D1836 mark by the rear sling swivel If a circle P is found on the rifle it would indicate that Springfield had installed the replacement stock. None of the true A1's "military or DCM" will have band slot inletting for the A3 hand guard. Hope this clears up why thats the answer is what it is, if you boil off guns made for the public, target shooters and snipers, your left with Generally issued guns. If you crunch the numbers of the changes and when they occurred this should be what you come up with-SDH
The only thing that is consistent with Remington M1903s is their inconsistency. You will find grasping groove stocked rifles with round rear sight bases, non grasping groove stocked rifles with early lightened rear sight bases, serifed letter R marked parts where one would expect non serifed R markings stamped into them, receivers with or without a punch mark below the s/n, and rarely a missing US above the Remington name. Then there is the gas escape hole(s)... sometimes one, sometimes two in rifles in the same serial number range. You will find tangs not drilled through 3,05x,xxx s/n range... confounding collectors to this very day!
the only military issue rifle that was made with a C stock was the 1903A4.
the C stocks on 1903A1,s was installed by the gov, after SA built the rifle, it was issued or sent to variuos places , then a C stock may have been added,
and then sold through the DCM.
Keystone, Milton Bradly, and American Billiard and Bowling made WW2 style C stocks, and will be cut for the A3 handguard ring,
no early thin wristed C stocks were ever made with a mill cut for the handguard ring for the A3s, as they wer made 1922 to 1939, the fat grip C stocks, were produced after March of 1943, well after the 1903A1 was issued, and sold.
the exeption to that rule is the first 1000 1903A4 snipers rifles had SA supplied hand cut thin wrist C stocks, as they had no Fat C stocks available yet. they hand cut the stock for the ring and turn down bolt, as well as opened up the front recoil lug for the A3 lug, and the stamped trigger guard.
and that held up production, of the A4 as well as the scope issues, until Feb of 43, when the first 2 were shipped for testing.
my March, April, C stocks were being delivered, and the A4 had its own stock, By Dec or 43 they started using Scant grip stocks on the A4.
and the A4 is also the only 1903 variant ever made new with a scant grip stock.
the first 1903A1 listed and sold as such is serial number 1200051, the last one listed as just a A1 is 1386743 all others after are listed as NMA1. until 1527003.
one could purchase a C stock at that time. but putting a rifle in the stock doesnt make it an A1, only a 1903 in a C stock.
i belive that only a documented 1903A1 is a true A1..no matter what stock it sits in.
example. if you had 1209181 as a bear receiver, it would still be a 1903A1. as its in the list of DCM rifle sales 1922 to 1942.
iv presented the challange many times to show a rifle below the serial number i listed , with DCM sales or despo, records saying its a 1903A1, and so far , no one has come up with such a rifle.
however, iv seen quite a few rifles at gunshows, on GB, ect, all being sold as a 1903A1 just cuz its stuffed in a C stock.
even seen the rare Remington 1903A1 being sold for 2 grand...{eyeroll} trying to get rich on the 1903A1 train.
In the book by Bill Bropry, He lays it out pretty clearly based on the production requests and serial numbers. You've done extremely well with your collection, It appears your in an area where they just happened to be at the time you were ready to buy, again since 1976, I've been collecting and have only seen two. Both I bought and did very well on-SDH
As far as the A1 stock go, I completely agree with you, entirely. There is only one example that I know of that slipped through the cracks as an issued rifle, all the others I've seen others the years have been either DCM or WW II, except the one I have in my basement, I'll be posting picks later, I have to get to work soon. The rifle came out of Ft. Benning in 1946 from the area where they were making prototype sniper rifles. The only reason I believe it wasn't used is because it was not a N.M.. Bbill B. said he would have used both the my rifles in his book, had he not already written it. Pics to come-SDH
thats an awesome book, but in the past 10 years, a few things have changed, and some of the info in that and many of the books on 03,s has been found to be in error.
heck i havnt even opened up a 1903 text book in a couple years.
as for the Remingtons, Dans wonderful collection, is a great example on what happen with most of them, they were sent to other countrys, and used here in non combat ops.
by the time the Reminton 03 was being made, the Garand was in full production,
most 03,s and A3,s made during that time, were never issued, sent to Allies, or issued in non combat ops,
but, youll find pics of the A3 being used in Korea, ect, once again, in support troops hands, or grenade use.
i talked to a Korea vet that drove a 6x6 supply truck, and he was issued a Remington A3, said he never fired it at a live target, and it made a great hat rack , and jacket rack, lol.
told me he would had rather had a M1 carbine, as it would had taken up less space in the cab.
but the color of his skin kept him from getting the Carbine, he did have some great pics, and nice bring backs, knives, tools, ect. had a real cool home made hunting knife, thats another story, for another forum.
I very much appreciate the input. I haven't collected them since 1993, I had to sell off most of my entire collection (163 rifles, mostly 03's). When I got past the crisis they were just too expensive to collect the way I like so I went Milsurp. It appears a lot has changed since that time, it used to be Bill B's book, Crossmans, Chambells and Hatchers books were Gospel. I liked Bills book the best and primarily studied it for years while collecting. Its quite obvious many things have surfaced since that time that have slipped me entirely, My Apologies-Steve D.H. PS I got two of the three remaining 03's in my collection going up on a new post, please check them out and let me know what you think.
Steve... you should take a look at C.S. (Nick) Ferris' Rock Island Rifle Model 1903. It is a fantastic read, and a great reference work. The other tomes are sadly in need of updating.
Nick Ferris is a real nice guy, lives a few miles away from me, he also has a nice collection of Remington 03,s incuding a few unserialed proto types made by RIA and with Remington during the first stage of the production.
and a few neet RIA,s one thats a NM, and another WW1 sniper.
if you look at some of the picture in his RIA book, youll see some parts i loaned him through my father, one that stands out in my memory is a early stock i had, if you look close, you can see the sanding marks from my drill sander,,yep, i know, i was ruining a nice stock, but i was young, and they were all over back then, and that didnt matter too me at the time.
a few bolts, trigger guards, ect, that i loaned my father to give nice for pictures.
sadly, any new 03 books that have come out in the last few years , have been disapointing to say the least, Poyers is laid out well, but lots of wrong info. from dates, to scope info..one thing that stands out is a picture of a 1903A1 USMC sniper rifle, then i look real close,,its a Remington 03!!, i asked him about it, and his responce? it was just for the picture of the USMC scope. and not the rifle..
I haven't read that one yet, time to hunker down and get back into the program, when I had to sell off, Although it was better than a stock market investment it was a heart breaker. So I got into Milsurps, I am however starting to look again and even picked up a minty A3 rebuild by Elmer Keith, hmm, starting to itch again-Steve