A5/B4 scope also Evans Bros's WW1 scope mounts

Hi All,
I'm Trying to finish my replica, WW1 sniper rifles, my A5/B4 scope is mainly complete, but I'm looking for a A5 type end to go on it, rather than just make up the simple knurled locking ring type end, that I understood, at the time was std for the B4's. I'm not so sure on this now, if any how if anyone can help me out with a spare adjustable focal end for sale, or even details of one so I can finish off the rest, and finish this. Would be greatly appreciated also, any help or contact leads,would help thanks.

On the second part, I'm also looking for any info on Evan's Bros scope mounts, as they fitted the most German scopes to WW1 smle's, early in the war. I have a fair few pictures of them now, even with them holding German scopes,my rifle is a 1915 BSA mk3*. However there doesn't appear to be any allowance for windage on these set-up's. I'm not glued to total correctness, but would rather be faithful, if possible, and especially if I'm missing something.
Any advice gratefully received, again thanks.

Regards Ian

Hello Ian,
There are two patterns of mounts that were used by Evans for mounting their scopes on the SMLE so far as I am aware. There is an example of one type in the Imperial War Museum collection in London, & anyone with a copy of Ian Skennerton's 'The British Sniper' can see it featured in the book. However, in spite of periodic rumours of other examples of this type (large cast aluminium side rail type mount) still existing, I have never seen one. The known surviving example does bear an Evans scope.

Whilst not common, the second pattern of mount that I am aware of does still exist in quite small numbers, & I know of at least two rifles that have been set up using either original or reproduction bases sympathetically fitted to a period SMLE & then topped off with an original Evans scope with original two piece rings. There is indeed no lateral adjustment on the two piece rings or on Evans scopes, but there is a worm wheel type adjuster on the front mount base. I have a rifle fitted with an original set of bases that I found in a leading Bisley based gunsmith's junk box about twenty five years ago, & it is these that are now fitted to my rifle. One set of faithful copy mounts was reproduced from them some years ago & as far as I am aware it is this set that is fitted to the only other complete rifle that I know of. I think that this rifle is featured in Robert Spielauer's book. There will be photographs of my rifle & scope available when part 2 of my HBSA article on Great War British & Dominion Sniping Equipment gets printed at the end of this year/beginning of next. Part one (essentially dealing with the larger volume production rifles such as the PPCo, Aldis/Purdey, Aldis/H&H, & Winchester A5 types) is in the current 2015 journal. Sorry for the plug!

If you wish I'll try & sort out some photo's of the Evans mounts. But of course, they may have used different mounting systems for fitting other manufacturers' scopes - there are huge gaps in our knowledge about the First World War rifles, certainly compared to what happened in WW2 & later.

ATB.

A few photo's I thought people might find of interest........& it does make a change from No4 (T)'s & L42's! The feet on my Evans scope were damaged & have been rebuilt, though they still require a little cosmetic playing with. The WA5 shown came with its matching case, which is marked to the 26th Bn Royal Fusiliers. The Aldis H&H case is named to an Abner Blythe, a sniper in the 8th Bn KOYLI. It seems Abner was lucky & survived the Great War.

ATB.

Thumbnails are tiny for some reason Roger.

Hi Roger,
Thanks again for coming to my aid, I'm not sure I've seen the first aluminium mount you refer to,unless it's that bracket that fits from the trigger guard. I'm awaiting a look at the British Sniper, when it arrives on inter-library loan.
I have a copy of Robert Spielauer's book, and see what looks like two sets of Evans mounts shown in it. First the just F&R square box type, and then the similar set with the inverse sine wave extension added on, and then a brass rod protruding out of it. I take it that's the worm wheel type, Thanks very much for that tip, much appreciated.
In Skennerton's book, British Empire Sniper rifles he lists the Evan's Bros as the largest suppliers of Goerz scope combo's, not sure exactly what he mean's when he splits the two groups first to early 1915 group, which would suit my receiver date and amounting to 80 units, then a further 120. I have a really nice Georz scope and matching 12x bino's too, to play with.
Another question while I've got you Roger, is are the scopes listed as Evans scopes, actually British or are they earlier German scopes, being that their still in brass, then converted slightly and renamed, Evans. I understand this went on quite a bit, especially from other books I have, and they look so German.
Also Sorry for my ignorance, but where can I obtain a copy of your articles, I'm interested in reading them, thanks a lot for all your help.

A very nice collection, I really prefer the WW1 rifles too, although I can't knock my Fake LB 4T, and even though it's just a replica, it's still really nice, but not even close to as interesting. Do you know anything of the C.L.L.E.'s that they were suppose to of kitted out , I've hear'd them refereed too, with all kinds of sights and, mounts.

Best regards Ian

Roger,
could you post larger pictures? They are indeed tiny as mike 1967 says.
Rob

Sorry chaps. Hadn't realised they would come out so small. Busy day on but I'll see what I can do later.

The Royal Armouries have two Long Lees that have bases on them for the Jeffery scope, & long rifles were also fitted with various target sights in the marksman's role, particularly early on in the war. I also have a Watts scope in Alex Martin side mounts that was removed from a LLE & was the personal property of a Colonel (who wrote his name on the scope case). However, I suspect that this may have been a one off, as were so many. This heterogeneity of designs makes the study so rewarding & frustrating both at the same time!

Rob, are the HBSA articles available generally on line? I only have two hard copies, one of which is promised to a good friend.

Ian, I haven't looked at the Spielauer book recently & was speaking from memory, but I'll double check what is shown in case I got it wrong. The Evans rifle at the IWM is indeed the large cast aluminium mount that locates to the trigger guard of the SMLE.

Being a techno-dummy I'll see if I can figure out how to resize some photo files later so they are uploadable, but so that they don't come out too small, as clearly happened above. Bear with me!

Roger, as far as I know, the articles are only published on paper; clearly the HBSA should digitise all the present and past journals for the last 43 yrs and post them as searchable PDFs - this is what, for example, the South African Military History Society did, and it immediately became an invaluable resource. I shall contact the editor and make a suggestion.

Roger, the HBSA inform me that journals are available to purchase online - up till 2014 so far - see
HBSA Journal Summaries and digital downloads - Historical Breechloading Smallarms Association
but note they cost £8+VAT per issue.

Can you make them larger DRP. Not a phrase I'm familiar with myself of course!

Had another go at some photo's....

and a few more.

Ian, the Evans rifle is shown in this posting; with the twin mount bases & the scope missing. The scope for it is shown in the last but one photograph.

Hope it will be legible, but can you make out the initials written on the Model 1918 scope case?

The Watts scope with Purdey mounts is not mine - it belongs to a friend who was kind enough to loan it to me.

The Jeffery came with civvy range drum, but there is a military example shown by it (though probably too far away to discern any major details).

I at first thought the purple writing in the lid of the Aldis H&H scope case might have been faked, but I now seriously doubt it - a little research revealed that it was a popular colour of ink to write in a century ago.

...........& yes, that is a piece of 1" mild steel rod in the rings of the SMLE Aldis Overbore rifle. As you can no doubt guess, it's a reconstruction job in progress, although I do have a nice 4th pattern Aldis selected for it.

Thanks Rob - re the HBSA journals, I was thinking about people who may like to see them but who perhaps are not members or did not know about the association.

Hope people find the pics of some interest.

roger, have you ever considered adopting? if so i'm 41, housetrained and like old guns. :D

Simply amazing!! You have no idea how jealous I am looking at that impressive collection!!

Thanks for sharing.

Brian B

Thanks chaps. I've just been collecting since I was a teenager & I'm 58 tomorrow........have just slowly amassed it over a very long time.
Hadn't considered adopting but my wife would sell it all in a flash for any reasonable offer!

Incidentally, has anybody yet noticed the significance of the initials on the scope case for the No3 (T)? It says.......'EGBR'. Ring any bells anyone?

Ian, would you be in a position to let us see some photo's of your scope(s)? I'd be fascinated to see.....

Hey Roger, I might not be the right person to determine the initials on the scope pouch, but some other questions:
- why are the two checkered spring depressors on the PPCo snipers differently shaped and differently checkered? Are there different variants for different periods?
- why do the two H&H scopes feature different rear scope rings? While one has the notch towards the front, the other one has it towards the rear
- The SMLE rifle with the H&H mount does not have the rear handguard. Is this usual for these snipers, or is it only missing for the pictures? I'm mainly asking because the handguard for the Purdey mount is perfectly inletted.

Good questions!
The photo of the two PPCo SMLE's I took to illustrate exactly this - I have noticed two distinct minor variations in the bases - one with the smaller thumb catch & the squared off front lower corner, & the one with the larger thumb catch & the rounded front bottom corner. There are also considerable variations in the checkering of the catch, which I guess was probably done by hand.

What I didn''t mention is that one of the two H&H mounted scopes is a military example but which was modified to fit a Lee Speed in an over bore configuration, hence the differences in the rings, although even in the military configuration there are minor differences in the contour of the front ring 'leg'. No doubt there are other differences too......I can only mention what I have noticed.

There is no guard on the Aldis H&H SMLE because that is the rifle I rebuilt from genuine parts (featured on the Restorer's Corner a few pages back), & I still haven't got round to fitting the guard! From the few original rifles or photo's thereof that I've seen, there seem to be variants even in this, or it is missing altogether.

ATB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

'EGBR'. Ring any bells anyone?

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Mr Reynolds himself?

Well Mike, I'm presuming that's to whom it likely refers. The scope & case were bought at a Bisley arms fair many years ago by a friend of mine (the No3 (T) is genuine but mis-matched). It really would be stretching coincidence for that combination of initials to be someone else, though I've no confirmation, unfortunately.

ATB.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

It really would be stretching coincidence for that combination of initials to be someone else

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I would have to agree. I would be nice to find an inscription in one of his books just to try make a hand writing comparison.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

Thanks chaps. I've just been collecting since I was a teenager & I'm 58 tomorrow........have just slowly amassed it over a very long time.
Hadn't considered adopting but my wife would sell it all in a flash for any reasonable offer!

Incidentally, has anybody yet noticed the significance of the initials on the scope case for the No3 (T)? It says.......'EGBR'. Ring any bells anyone?

Ian, would you be in a position to let us see some photo's of your scope(s)? I'd be fascinated to see.....

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Major EGB Reynolds...

Major Edmund George Barton Reynolds, IIRC.

ATB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mike1967

I would have to agree. I would be nice to find an inscription in one of his books just to try make a hand writing comparison.

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Here are the said initials as written on paper. On the rough cloth of the scope case, block letters would have been easier. The rest of the signature is cropped out for obvious reasons. ;)

Attachment 72149

Hi Roger,
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you,but what a fantastic display of rifles. I really must thank you, for all the trouble you've gone to putting those all those rifles on line, a massive thanks.
I'm reading as many books as I can about the period, as I find it the most interesting of periods, the characters and the multitude of different rifles designs too.
I cannot recall who's words these were, but they had been issued a new sniper rifle, replacing his other older one. The new one adjusted by putting a pin into the small hole to adjust it, which continually found it's way into the mud at the bottom of the trench, and luckily something else fitted.
One further question, if you don't mind. when approximately, was the the adjustable Evan's mounts introduced, would they be premature on a 1915, based rifle as it's this early period I'm shooting for, and most interested in.
What a fantastic collection you have, but which do you prefer, shooting, and which design would you say work's best, just out of interest, surely you must be the only guy who could access these differences,and access them, many thanks again Roger.

Hi Ian,
Thanks very much for your comments. I haven't shot all of the SMLE snipers, though have one or two of them. To be honest it's a high days & holidays situation, as they are too valuable to shoot regularly. Additionally, although they fascinate me as historic weapons, if I want to have a great shoot down at the range I take my L42A1 with me! It's far more accurate. I haven't finished rebuilding it yet, but I would guess the SMLE with over bore claw mounts would be the best shooting proposition of the WW1 era SMLE snipers. It is the one shown with the 1" steel rod in the rings - I will be fitting either a 4th or a modified 3rd pattern Aldis into it when I get round to it. The end result is a rifle with a similar mount system to the No3 (T) & the Lithgow No1 Mk3* H T, although it dates from 1918/19.

The Evans two piece mounts date from 1915. There is an original rifle in the Royal Armouries/National Firearms Collection (I think I forgot to mention this one when I referred to the Evans in an earlier posting), that is, IIRC, fitted to a 1912 dated rifle, so any early Mk3 SMLE dated up to & including 1915 would be fine for a recreation.

ATB.

Hi Roger,
thanks again for getting back to me. Yup! I can see that, if I had a nice L42, blasting away with that would be very good.
I'm the same with my older Rifles, I have a thing for Long lee's, especially the one's with good Bores, also LE Carbines and range rifles, other early breech loading British rifles. I do shoot them all, but respectfully, so I fully understand you're reservations.
That's what's a nice thing about replica's, you can always build another, and for me being interested in these early pre 1916 rifle concoctions, and all the intrigue, that goes with them. My only access to info, other than the books I'm reading, is on this forum.
It's just my curiosity as an engineer, as to what you thought had the best overall design features, all things considered, and the neat mechanical designs. It's not my field, only a hobby, but curiosity got the better of me, and I had to ask, hope you didn't mind.Thanks for your patience.

Best regards Ian

Not at all Ian,my pleasure. Keep us posted as your project develops.

I'm curious about this one Roger, any further information?

I see there is a South African ownership mark...

Hi Rob,
I'm afraid the reality of that one is that that was the best SMLE I had to hand when I wanted to get the Evans bases fitted (I got them from Fulton's junk box twenty five years ago!). The rifle has been sympathetically set up, but bears some 'inappropriate' service marks!

You could have fooled me, in fact you did! ;)

I've posted these before but didn't think it would do any harm to put them up again given the subject matter. I took these about ten years ago during a visit the IWM Reserve Collection.

Simon.

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Evans certainly deserved points for effort with that affair. Quite futuristic for 1915, but the zero of course would wander with the weather and the failure to tie into at least the safety spring bolt is inexplicable. Does it really hang off just those two guard screws??

I wouldn't have thought the zero would wander any more than it would have on the Whitehead setup in all honesty.

The mount is secured in three places, two points are indeed on the trigger guard screws, the third possibly more secure point is achieved by removing and replacing the ejection screw below the charger bridge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Simon

I wouldn't have thought the zero would wander any more than it would have on the Whitehead setup in all honesty.

The mount is secured in three places, two points are indeed on the trigger guard screws, the third possibly more secure point is achieved by removing and replacing the ejection screw below the charger bridge.

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Ah yes, looking at the photos properly that becomes obvious! So the first of many such re-purposings of the ejector screw hole.

Yes, perhaps no more wandering zero than the Whitehead's, if that would be any consolation.

The more one sees of the others, the better Parker Hale's design looks. It was certainly the cheapest and easiest to fit, and if the rear screw point got displaced it would be easy to tell... And if they had tied into the backsight spring screwhole it would have been even stronger.