I know that the Sturmgewehr is considered by many to be the first assault rifle, but why not the M2 Carbine? It has a shortened profile, intermediate cartridge, select fire, and is magazine fed. What am I missing here?
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I know that the Sturmgewehr is considered by many to be the first assault rifle, but why not the M2 Carbine? It has a shortened profile, intermediate cartridge, select fire, and is magazine fed. What am I missing here?
You could argue the Fedorov Avtomat is the first assault rifle, a full 20 years earlier, intermediate cartridge, select fire and magazine fed.
The reason the Sturmgewehr is considered the first, as it was the first intended for that role with the type of tactics a assault rifle would have as opposed to just being used like a Automatic Rifle/LMG (like the BAR or BREN).
The difficult part is the ambiguity of the term, define it? Every major source has a slightly different opinion. I think the Stg series gets the first "award" because the rifle appears to have coined the terms with it's very name "Sturmgewehr" "Storm-Rifle" for the Sturmtruppen, "Storm Troops" (direct) commonly translated to Assault Troops.Quote:
Originally Posted by dandhan
It's like anything named in that manner, Humvee = Hummer, the Humvee, H1, H2 and H3 "Hummers" are all very different animals.
This could go far off the beaten track, but define the term "Carbine", and see where we end up, it is another somewhat ambiguous term.
SentryDuty hits the target dead-on -- the definition is very hard to pin down. For legal purposes, in the US the definition is typically:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentryduty
Military configuration with detachable magazine, folding stocks, pistol grips, ability to accept bayonet, flash suppressors, bipods, grenade launchers, night sights, ability to fire automatically, chambered for a centerfire cartridge having a length of 2.25 inches or less.
Under this type of definition (except for folding stock) the Model 1923 Thompson Submachine gun might be considered to qualify as one of the first assault rifles. It fired the more powerful .45 Remington–Thompson cartridge with a heavy 250-grain bullet at a higher muzzle velocities (than the 45ACP) of 1,450 fps (440 m/s), with greater range than the .45 ACP with a 14-inch barrel, bipod and bayonet lug. The Army did not give the Model of 1923 much consideration, so it was not adopted, which in retrospect, might have been a mistake had they continued development of this weapon. Same with the Army's decision never to develop the Johnson Auto Carbine http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Semi-...Johnson%20Carb
IMO it's because when the imaginary term "Assault Rifle" or "Assault Weapon" was cooked up. The STG-44 was the first to look like the targeted firearms. Unwitting firearm enthusiasts bought into the term and bingo, anything with certain features is an "Assault Rifle", anything else isn't.
For anyone interested this is where the catch phrase originated.
Josh Sugarmann - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
FWIW, Wikipedia has an interesting definition of Assault Rifle. Many would not exactly agree with this definition, but it creates an interesting discussion:
Definition: Assault Rifle
The term assault rifle is generally attributed to Adolf Hitler, who for propaganda purposes used the German word "Sturmgewehr" (which translates to "assault rifle"), as the new name for the MP43, subsequently known as the Sturmgewehr 44 or StG 44. Other sources dispute that Hitler had much to do with coining the new name besides signing the production order. The StG 44 is generally considered the first selective fire military rifle to popularize the assault rifle concept. Today, the term assault rifle is used to define firearms sharing the same basic characteristics as the StG 44.
In a strict definition, a firearm must have at least the following characteristics to be considered an assault rifle:
- It must be an individual weapon
- It must be capable of selective fire
- It must have an intermediate-power cartridge: more power than a pistol but less than a standard rifle or battle rifle
- Its ammunition must be supplied from a detachable box magazine
- And it should have an effective range of at least 300 metres (330 yards)
Rifles that meet most of these criteria, but not all, are technically not assault rifles, despite frequently being called such.
For example:
- Select-fire M2 Carbines are not assault rifles; their effective range is only 200 yards.[18]
- Select-fire rifles such as the FN FAL battle rifle are not assault rifles; they fire full-powered rifle cartridges.
- Semi-automatic-only rifles like variants of the Colt AR-15 are not assault rifles; they do not have select-fire capabilities.
- Semi-auto rifles with fixed magazines like the SKS are not assault rifles; they do not have detachable box magazines and are not capable of automatic fire.
The U.S. Army defines assault rifles as "short, compact, selective-fire weapons that fire a cartridge intermediate in power between submachine gun and rifle cartridges."
That is more or less the right set of criteria that I would go by in a "military-esque" definition of the term, (I am discounting all political bastardizations of the term of course.) but that does cover the aspects of what made the STG/MP43-44 series innovative and unique for their time.
The lines get very blurry because the term itself relies on other terms that are often not fully defined.
Individual weapon - easy enough, one man one kit.
Selective Fire - Semi, plus burst or automatic.
Intermediate-power cartridge - This one gets sticky, pistol is easy, but what does and does not constitute a standard rifle cartridge? Everyone will have a slightly different set of opinions. Not being obtuse, but most militaries consider the M16/C7 to be a Service Rifle and 5.56mm to be a standard rifle caliber now.
All these interpretations make it difficult to really pin down the definition.
Other aspects of the STG that were ground breaking for the platform but not covered above, the fitment of a pistol grip, the line of the bore is directly inline with the shooter's shoulder, optional non-sniper optical sights, no provision for a bayonet (most patterns) and medium overall length about 1 meter.
Take the FG42, has a number of similar features but not technically an "Assault Rifle" by the definition above due to caliber, is it a LMG? a Main Battle Rifle? etc.
Just garnering more discussion about the whole idea, FN FAL - fires a full-powered rifle cartridge, the 7.62x51mm. Follow me with this, 7.52 Nato was built up from the .308 Winchester cartridge (nearly identical) and .308 Winchester is a development evolution of the .300 Savage hunting caliber.
Now the .300 Savage caliber was designed to offer a cartridge that could approach the ballistics of the .30-06 Springfield, while at the same time using a smaller case that could be cycled through a short-action lever rifle.
Based on that a person could decide that the 7.62 Nato came about as downsizing of a .30-06 (full-powered) and there is is an intermediate cartridge, not a full powered/battle rifle round.
I don't truly classify 7.62 Nato as such personally, but it is just to illustrate that building a classification of a firearm on somewhat vague terms is bound to be filled with pitfalls.
Jumping to car terminology as a contrast, Porsche builds a sports car with only two seats and an engine behind the driver, and they call it the 550, we have the Porsche 550. Other companies build similar cars that have only two seats and engines behind the driver, are they considered Ferrari and Lamborghini 550's?
Of course not, but are they sports cars? Yes, but some cars that are sports cars do not have their engines in the rear, such as the Corvette, after that things start to get muddy again when trying to lump similar but unalike things into categories.
It's all rather silly, ramming things into categories is at best, a crutch of the layman to understand something in a very general fashion without truly learning about the topic.
The original FN FAL rifles were made in 7,92x33mm both rifle and bullpup rifle. Before the MP43 there was the MKb 42 also in 7,92x33mm which (unlike the later models) fired full auto from an open bolt.
My vote for one of the early assault rifles would be the Winchester Model 1907, you had the 351 WSL cartridge, later models were Winchester factory converted to full auto (Model 1917) and used both
ten and twenty round magazines. (The French even manufactured cartridges and magazines too). During the post WW1 period the French even developed their own "assault rifle " cartridge by necking
down the Winchester 351 cartridge to 8mm, it was called the 8mm Ribeyrolle and were working on a assault rifle chambered for it.
I have a Winchester 1905 rifle chambered for the 35 Winchester self loading cartridge which is about equal to the modern 357 magnum in power, my rifle was also manufactured in 1905 too. It has a five
round detachable magazine and I understand ten round magazines were available. I really enjoy shooting this rifle from 1905
The 1916 Federov "Avtomat" is considered the beginning of the "Assault Rifle" story. It was specifically conceived for a Lighter cartridge (Lighter than 7,62x54R), the Japanese 6,5x50SR; it was selective fire, it fed from a Box magazine, and it was built to be able to be handled by One man...it fits all the criteria...even though it did not enter service only Late 1918 after the Main War with Germany was over (peace Treaty of Brest-Litovsk);
and then in both the Civil War and the Polish-Bolshevik war of 1920; the small quantity remaining went back to store, and work on "Avtomats" (the Russian Term for Lightweight machine Rifles) sort of drifted...available M1916s were sent to Spain during the SCW, and some may even have ended up in China in the 1930s (There is one at the Jun-shi Bowuguan (Museum) in Beijing. There is also reports of 16s being used during the Winter War with Finland...for the small quantity made, they seemed to get around quite a lot.
Assault is the same as "Storming" the walls; the equivalent German Word is "Sturm" ( from which the assault meaning of "storm" in English is taken...English is a Germanic as well as a Franco-Latin Language.
AS to the story about AH and the MP43/44, it came about following the meeting with a Battle Group which fought its way out of the Cholm Kessel encirclement by the Soviets...thanks to MP43s and 44s airdropped to them by the Luftwaffe; when asked what they wanted, they immedialtely said...More of these "SturmGewehr ". So to appease Hitler, the makers changed the name from "MP" MachinenPistole" to StG ( assault Rifle) in early 1944. The Original "MP designation was introduced in early 1943, when Hitler forbade any development of a "machine Karabiner" which would detract from the Kar98k ( the MKb42 Model.).
As to the Win M1907 (M1917 France) these are Not "Assault" rifles, as the Item is merely a conversion of an existing SA Rifle, firing (an admittedly low Power) Rifle cartridge, and the French called them Fusil Mitrailleur (FM) meaning "Machine Rifle", same as the CSRG, the Lewis, and the Madsen Musketen captured from the Germans.
I would add to the definition of "Assault Rifle" the Barrel length to be under 20 inches (500mm); maybe even 18 inches (450mm).
The FN L1A1 was converted into an "Assault Rifle" in Vietnam by the Aussie SAS...Barrel shortened to just out from the Gas Block, NO Flash Hider; Trigger Mechanism converted using L2A1 Parts, 30 round L2A1 or L4A1 (Bren) Mags used...tactical use: in deep VC country patrols, Forward scout on making a contact, fired the full 30 rounds in one Burst, in MG style...giving the rest of the section/squad a chance to take up fighting Positions or to engage in Ambush Drills. By the time F/scout had hit the ground, the full mag was replaced by another 30 rounder. (From anecdotes of a Veteran SAS/AATTV , Vision of examples of said "conversion," and Building one for Movie use (Blank fire)... it is awesome.
Doc AV
Probably the first effective assault gun was the Walker Colt and late .44 Dragoons used by such people as John Coffee Hays and other Texas Rangers.
The Spencer repeating rifle might qualify as the first assault rifle. If you don't like that one then the Henry, 1866 and 1873 Winchesters probably qualify as the first assault rifles.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...encer001-1.jpg
what about the MKB42
what about the Pedersen rifle ????
I can still remember that I was taught that the first `assault rifle´ (`Sturmgewehr´) was invented by a Mexican, General Mondragón (1908). During WWI it was still being manufactured in Switzerland and was purchased by the Germans to arm aircraft.