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This is my first Krag. Bought it online for what I thought was a good price. Its in ok condition except the bore is pretty ragged. Not sure if its shootable. I was hoping for a better bore. The rifle looked to me to be original, but not sure if rear sight was an arsenal update. Any thoughts on it? Thanks
Kerry
PS This is my first post on Milsurps!
'Kerry49' - Congratulations on obtaining you first Krag-Jorgensen. Your rifle looks quite decent on the outside with a nice '1900 acceptance cartouche' and circled 'P' (function proof).
Your stock appears quite shiny in your photos, like it has been varnished. If so, you might consider carefully stripping the coat of varnish and renewing the Linseed Oil finish.
Your rifle, #242268, was likely assembled around December, 1899, or January, 1900. A 1900 date 'acceptance cartouche' on the stock shows a nice matchup.
It is likely your Krag may have had several different rear-sights during its service time.
Your Krag is in the serial number range of rifles issued with the 1898 type rear-sight. This sight had a short career. The higher velocity (2,200 fps) cartridge it was calibrated for was withdrawn from service, when Krag bolts began showing cracks.
Most 1898 Krags ultimately ended up with either the 1901 or the 1902 rear sight. You have the 1902 sight. It is believed a lot of rifles with this sight went to National Guard units.
Your Krag is in the small percentage of rifles Franklin Mallory found documented in official records. (His research was published as "SRS Records" - Springfield Research Services).
Your rifle's number appears (TWICE!) in the 'appendix tables' of "The Krag Rifle Story", 2nd. edition, page 323: #242268 - 1898 Rifle - 02/06/1905 - Maryland N.G. (Loose Bore) AND #242268 - 1898 Rifle - 12/1899 Manufactured.
FWIW - I reviewed the tables in my copy of "The Krag Rifle Story". There are 214 Maryland N.G. rifles listed (between #236863 and #243577). They are all listed as manufactured in December, 1899. (66 rifles are reported to have a "Loose Bore" - Oversize?). Some of the Md. N.G. rifles were issued in September, 1904. The others were issued 02/06/05.
On further review of the tables in "The Krag Rifle Story":
222 rifles are listed for the Maryland N.G. (all are reported as being Manufactured in December, 1899).
156 rifles are apparently issued in September, 1904.
66 rifles reported with "Loose Bore" are apparently issued 02/06/1905.
Thanks for the great information on the service of this rifle. I noticed that where it's not worn with patina that it seems to have a black finish, almost like paint. I didn't show the butt plate, but it has some kind of black finish on it. Would this be correct or something done after by "bubba"?
"Kerry49" - 'Black Paint' sounds like somebody's Home Remedy.
Arsenal procedure for Butt-plate, Trigger-guard, Barrel-bands and Sling-swivels was to "Blue in Nitre" for reconditioning.
Receiver and other case-hardened parts, as well as, Barrel were "browned", a slow rust bluing process. The barrel will take a dull blue appearance. The receiver, side-plate, and magazine-gate will often look mottled or even 'silvery' with wear and time.
Stocks were cleaned, scraped (to remove varnish, oil, and minor blemishes), given a dip in warm water, sanded, and finished with a light coat of Linseed Oil.
IMHO - Many parts of the Krag had a pretty fragile finish. Butt-plates will often just show patina and rust discoloration.
Attached photos: #1 shows a really pristine butt-plate (not my Krag). The next four photos are of my experienced Krag that show pretty normal honest wear.
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Well, I didn't really think the black stuff was correct. Paint thinner didn't phase it. Thanks for the Picts. Need to put up a couple of good pictures of the bore. I'll add the butt plate too.
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Well, here are a couple more pictures, my best bore picture and my blackened butt plate. The bore looks better in this picture than I thought it did just looking by eye down the bore. I think its rougher up near the throat. But shootable.? I think I'll keep plugging away at scrubbing the bore and take her out for a shoot.
Thanks!
'Kerry49' - That bore may surprise you. By all means give it a good scrub, but, generally a rough Krag bore doesn't seem to improve in appearance (darn early corrosive primers).
However, even a rough Krag may shoot jacketed bullets well. I have gotten good results from bores that look like yours. They are just never any fun to clean!
Try nail polish remover on your butt-plate. Soak #0000 steel wool or a piece of 'Scotch-Brite' pad with the remover and see if it dissolves and lifts the 'paint'. Wear dish gloves!
I did a more detailed inspection of the rifle in putting it back together after cleaning and the extractor has lost its claw to grab the rim. I see them available at SARCO and Numrich, but was wondering if replacing it is do-able with a hammer and a punch. I may replace the ejector while I'm at it, too. Advice?
Thanks.
'Kerry49' - Send me a PM with an address and I will send you a serviceable extractor.
The extractor rivet is generally not too difficult to remove. It helps if you have a drift or punch with a slightly concave tip and an extra pair of hands (or vise with 'safe' jaws).
Disassemble the bolt. Take the bolt sleeve (the extractor is 'riveted' to this part) and rest the rivet area on a piece of hardwood (extractor top is up). Drive the rivet downward. It helps if someone can hold the assembly on the hardwood as you strike the drift/punch with a small plastic or brass mallet. It helps if there is a shallow hole in the hardwood for the rivet to move in to.
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I received my replacement extractor/bolt sleeve today and went ahead and put in on my bolt. It went on fine, but the safety won't allow the bolt to open when it's in the upright position. Since it only assembles one way, I guess the new bolt sleeve may be the issue? I did go ahead and drive out the rivet on the old assembly. Not to bad. Any advice on the safety problem? I'm thinking of putting the old bolt sleeve back on.
'Kerry49' - Unlike the 1903 Springfield and model 1898 Mauser, (which have 'three-position' Safeties), the U.S. Krag only has a 'two-position' Safety. 'Flipped' to the left it is on FIRE. 'Flipped' to the right it is on SAFE and the bolt is locked from opening.
If you have the Safety-Lever pointing 'straight up', there is no detent position (if the parts are As Issued). However, with the Safety Lever pointing "up", the shaft on the Safety will partially engage the Striker Mechanism, holding it from going forward and also locking the bolt.
I have seen several Krag Bolt-Sleeves, where a 'dimple' was created, in the 'groove' at the intermediate (12 O'clock) position. However, this is not considered a safe practice because there is not adequate engagement of parts.
In summary, it sounds to me like your new parts are working correctly. Unless I have misunderstood your description, You don't have a "safety problem".
Thanks for all the help BR ! Just used to my mausers, 1903 and 1917. Never occurred to me. Great, looks like a trip to the range is next. Still working on that bore.
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I took the Krag out for a first shoot this AM. Good and Bad! As you can see, I have serious problems with the chamber on this rifle. Anyone encountered this before? I guess I have been very lucky on the previous milsurps I have had, as this is the first time I have seen anything like this. With the chamber this messed up, I would assume a re-barrel will be needed if I want to continue to shoot it. So, aside from the crappy bore and bad chamber it shot an 89 on an NRA 100 yard target. Just one sighter to see where it was and then 10 more. Obviously should have been more diligent in brass inspection, but as I said, a total surprise based on previous experience.
That is quite the aggressive fireforming, is it possible your rifle has been rechambered for another cartridge other than .30-40 Krag?
You should post some measurements of the fired casing for comparison, it almost looks like a .303 British casing after firing.
.30-40 Krag
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...04/30406-1.jpg
.303 British
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ish19gif-1.jpg
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Sentryduty, Well, I got to thinking that it might have been rechambered as well, so I looked in my Lyman's 49th and there are no rimmed cartridges that show a shoulder at about 1.95", Which is the approximate length to shoulder for the 30-06. I show the comparison between one of my shells and a 30-06. Pretty close, but Lyman's doesn't list any rimmed cartridges like that.?? I mean it reformed the shoulder .225". The casing is nice and uniform like it was reamed out. I am no expert, so I will need help explaining this one.
I am only a novice when it comes to reloading, but your fired casings, despite the ruptures are remarkably uniform.
If it were my rifle and I were unsure, I would get some cerrosafe and make a casting, then start from those measurements.
From there you could conclude if this were a result of some extreme wear/erosion or engineered work such as intentional reaming.
While I cannot comment if this is the case with your rifle, I do know of some fellows that have made their own "one-off" experimental wildcat cartridges and if you got some undocumented wildcatter's gun it could be an adventure to discover exactly what caliber you have.
Perhaps someone with more knowledge can recognize the casing or the behaviors of your rifle.
Quite interesting in all.
.303 Epps and others make some similar looking casings, however exact drawing dimensions are lacking on the internet.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...29656376-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...w300h248-1.jpg
303 Epps - Notes on Improved Cases
Just tossing out ideas at this point.
STOP!!!!!! LISTEN TO SENTRY DUTY! Find out what's going on there before you continue, maybe it's just the picture of the spent case next to the unfired one but the base of that cartridge looks bulged at the bottom. Maybe that's why you had extractor problems as well. Looks like you may have some fire-forming going on.
The dimensions of the fired case do not fit the 303 Epps theory. The chamber may have been reamed to some ackley improved wildcat or similar. I would then ask why was this done to a 100+ year old rifle? Was it fired using some suped up cartridge? I asked the seller about this but he knows nothing. I have no intention of firing this rifle again with this barrel, even if I find out what this mod is. As far as I'm concerned this barrel is toast. Even the bolt is suspect at this point. But I'm willing to listen to any ideas that fit the facts of my rifle. It would be useful to find out for future reference. I do appreciate everyone's interest and help!, I'm just a little upset right now.
Kerry49 - I am sorry this happened to you. I suspect your chamber was lengthened (reamed) for some VFW Post, so they could shoot .30-06 Blanks. This has happened to others with worse destruction to cases.
Whoever altered the chambers should have stamped their work - To Warn Others!
It looks like a candidate for a Criterion barrel! I would not fire it further!
Butlersrangers,
Ah ha! That's very interesting. I had begun to wonder if someone had tried to shoot 3006 in this since my formed cases kind of fit the 30 06 profile. If this was a past practice for blanks, that makes sense, considering the condition of the barrel. I'm much relieved. But I agree, my thoughts are leaning towards sending it to CMP to get rebarreled.
Thanks!
Kerry49 - Your Krag probably did not put you in danger, but, it is definitely a destroyer of hard to find Brass. (BTW - That is some good Brass to suffer that kind of 'reforming', so well)!
You should contact the Seller and explore 'returning' it for a refund or a major 'price adjustment' to help pay for repairs. - IMHO. The Seller at least owes you an apology and a box of ammo!
That makes complete sense, and if it has happened before to other rifles then that is probably the case here. It didn't seem right that someone would hotrod a Krag for wildcats, there are so many other actions that are more common candidates, and reaming for blank use did not even occur to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by butlersrangers
As I do not know Krags very well, is it right to guess that a .30-40 Krag action would not be safe to fire .30-06 ammunition in this action?
I suspect if .30-06 would work in a Krag the US government may not have bothered with the 1903 Springfield.
Again, interesting find, and serves as a personal reminder that I have to get some cerrsafe for casting new to me surplus guns, there are enough post service "modifications" to injure a shooter or damage a gun. Especially in the collector atmosphere where guns change hands and have never been shot by the previous owners, or worse yet, by someone that found a problem and is trying to pass it to someone else.
Krags adapted to fire .30-06 Blanks (by Veterans groups) show up from time to time. (I am not sure how they managed extraction)?
.30-06 Ball cartridges were not the intent of these 'modified' Krag chambers! They were for 'Ceremonial Blank Firing'. (IMHO - these were done unofficially by local handymen and not an "official" modification). I guess no one thought that future generations would be shooting these old things!
.30-06 Ball cartridges would exceed the safe pressure limitations of the Krag's metallurgy.
In 1898, when Frankford Arsenal stepped up the velocity of the .30-40 cartridge's 220 grain projectile to 2,200 FPS, Krag Bolts began showing cracked lugs. The 'hot' ammo was taken out of service, the original loading was restored, and the rifles got new sights.
Looks like a definite re-chamber, maybe a 30-06...improved? Like an Ackley? It's not a Krag anymore anyway, time to hunt out a barrel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentryduty
I wonder the same thing as butlersrangers, how did they extract the spent 3006 blank cartridge? I stuck a 3006 round in the chamber for yucks and in
IT went in and I could have closed the bolt( I did not attempt this!), but the extractor claw came no where near grabbing the rim. I think closing the bolt would have slightly deformed
The necked area. In any event my plan is to save up and send it to CMP for a rebarrel. Haven't dealt with them, so will need to jump through a few hoops it looks like. Need to find a CMP affiliate club to join in north central IN.
If you keep an eye online, you'll see a barrel come up occasionally. There are individuals that would part out a rifle because the total for the parts may be more than an assembled rifle...still you need it changed. They're also commercially available new if you don't mind that route.
I'm not familiar with the Krag market. From a shooter vs collector perspective, does rebarreling with an old stock vs new CMP have any impact on the collectability and market value of my rifle? I planned to shoot it on rare occasions at a CMP vintage match as they come up locally. I have a couple of other rifles in that planned rotation, so it wouldn't be frequent. And I am just a novice in these competitions, so it's only a fun hobby for me. I'll check out the old stock availability. The problem will be finding a competent gunsmith in my area. I know an old fellow that has a shop, but not sure I would trust him to rebarrel my 116 year old Krag.
Rebarreling isn't really magic but if you don't trust him then that says it all. Yes, it can be messed up if you don't know how or are careless. Changing anything on a collectible will adversely affect it's value, the purists don't care about a ratty barrel if it's the original. I care, but I'd just pass by a ratty barrel... If you can find an original barrel that matches for age and use it, you've done better than a new barrel or just any barrel. It boils down to whether you want it to be collectible and original or you want a great shooter. I had a carbine that had a sewer pipe but it was right so I just left it and sold it as was. Yes, you may be best to send it to the trusted and true CMP guys to do your work...