1916 BSA... Questions

1916 BSA... Questions

What interests me are the features it has as a MkIII* that do not comply with what the pattern is supposed to be for a MkIII* which leads me to think it was produced fairly early. 1917 BSAs I've seen photos of have the plugged disc hole and different cocking piece. I already know my rifle was converted to a trainer around 1956 so all the S/Ns were removed. What remains is a lined out no prefix 94625 which I guess might be the original S/N. Please let me know any info you may have or your thoughts... I have a well worn copy of "The British Service Lee" Thank you.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...kpeetirb-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._zpselma-1.jpg

Can you post a photo of the lined out number? It could be an inventory number if it has been in Australian service.

I'll upload it in a jiffy

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...flh2ylhg-1.jpg

That is not an inventory number so disregard my previous post.

Your rifle is in the correct configuration for a 1916, read this thread here https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=56490 it should help you understand why

Let me guess.

The rifle has a serial number of AMxxxx between AM544 and AM1534. Most likely at AM1186 or above.

Your .22 conversion was done by Parker Hale for Ireland. The barrel is a re-bored Irish Free state barrel. The unique serial number pattern was applied in the early 1920s, when Ireland was supplied with around 27,800 No 1 MK III rifles. Most were converted in 51/52 based on the Birmingham poof marks, though in the lower AM series you will see 1945 dated ones. I would guess it came from Joe Salter looking at the photo, in which case I should have the serial number in my database.


How did di do?

To all that have answered...Thank you

Didn't mean for this to be a trainer thread but I'm thankful to get the info. Yep I got it from Joe Salter...Now, if I understand Frederick303 correctly, you have determined it has a re-bored Irish Free State barrel by virtue of the AM 1186 S/N. I have found no FF marking anywhere on the wood or metal. I include more markings photos for identification. Can anyone tell me if the lined out S/N is consistent with how BSA stamped their S/Ns? and can it be determined approximately when it was made in 1916Does the S/N fall within the range that went to Irish Free State?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...flh2ylhg-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...r4puwkna-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g2a1v2k1-1.jpg

The answers are here:

Fritz's FF marked Enfield sticky

The specific posts to read are: 5, 17, 20, 34, 52 and 54.

if you have further questions, post after reading, though most of what I know is there, just a few added bits in the times since that was published.

You can also search this forum for AM or air ministry rifles and there is a fair bit posted on that specific variant on this site:

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=25941

Looking at your photos on a computer (instead of phone) you have a 1918 BSA not a 1916 & the original barrel serial number (i say barrel as you dont show a pic of the receiver number) is a J prefix the J can be seen stuck though between the 8 & 5 of the new number which appears to be F 18522

Frederick, how do you know this is a AM rifle?
Jim Long, is the serial number AM 1186? the chances of it being a number Frederick quoted seems remote, photo please.

Edited to add, J would fit with 1918 as i have 2 1918 BSAs with I & K prefixes

I maintain a database of Irish rifles. Looking at that F # I had it in my database of Irish .22 cal. conversions.

If you want more info got to the gun-boards and a lot of the information is under the posts listed.

:)https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...fvfldgkr-1.jpg

F303 I have a better pic of it I'll post . The F I can been more clearly. Def not in Skennerton's. Thank you, I really appreciate your input

I just picked up a BSA 1918 MkIII* that is a true time capsule. I'll start a new thread in the next day or two with pics.

F303 Would that S/N you found been amongst barreled actions sent over?
Here's the pic I promised of the F I
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2aawqmbp-1.jpg
FWIW Other side
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...y6d2rucd-1.jpg

I never have mentioned that though this has a tubed barrel done by Parker-Hale the muzzle is devoid of any lettering. Much thanks to all that have posted especially Frederick303.

The rifles were sold out of Irish stock in 1991.

The total number sold was 889.

All were sold to century arms, along with 5000 No4 MK III rifles in that same sale.

A survey of 66 rifles (7.42 % sample size) shows the lowest serial number being AM544, the highest AM1534 or 990 total range.

The early ones seem to have been ex-RAF guns and have proof marks dated to~ 6-Feb-1945. Conversions supposedly ended in 4-April 1945.

how many were bought from the MOD between 1945 and 1951 is unknown.

A number of the trifles show they were originally Irish rifles sent over to BSA be re-tubed to .22 cal by Parker Hale in the 1951 time frame (BB date).

most of these 1951 rifles have a small FF mark in a circle on the underside of the forend, just in front of the triggerguard. Not sure if your rifle has that or not. The mark in on the wood, not the metal on these post was re-tube

It turns out my rifle is very much like this one found in this thread @ Another Enfield #2 MK IV Trainer ... CAI Import - AR15.Com Archive
with a sleeved Parker-Hale barrel on a 1916 BSA receiver. Mine also is marked just to the rear of the charger bridge below the CAI import mark: No 2 MK4 22 U KING. But it differs in that it has the 22No2C bolt head and an AM s/n.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2sp4ejij-1.jpg

I like MVolkJs' comments in the thread and will probably describe it (underlined) the same.
"These rifles were a batch of rifles made up for the Air Ministry (that's what AM stands for).They aren't technically No.2 rifles as the No. 2 spec indicates a solid barrel, not a tubed one. What the official designation for them was I have no idea, as these were specifically Air service rifles. It's probably safe to call them Pattern '14 .22RF No. 2 s as that was the last accepted spec to use the Parker Rifling method of conversion to .22, though that spec no longer existed officially at the time these were converted (estimated to be around 1936)"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jim Long

It turns out my rifle is very much like this one found in this thread @ Another Enfield #2 MK IV Trainer ... CAI Import - AR15.Com Archive
with a sleeved Parker-Hale barrel on a 1916 BSA receiver. Mine also is marked just to the rear of the charger bridge below the CAI import mark: No 2 MK4 22 U KING. But it differs in that it has the 22No2C bolt head and an AM s/n.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2sp4ejij-1.jpg

I like MVolkJs' comments in the thread and will probably describe it (underlined) the same.
"These rifles were a batch of rifles made up for the Air Ministry (that's what AM stands for).They aren't technically No.2 rifles as the No. 2 spec indicates a solid barrel, not a tubed one. What the official designation for them was I have no idea, as these were specifically Air service rifles. It's probably safe to call them Pattern '14 .22RF No. 2 s as that was the last accepted spec to use the Parker Rifling method of conversion to .22, though that spec no longer existed officially at the time these were converted (estimated to be around 1936)"

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Several mistakes with that:

1) AM conversions prior to 1945 were Air ministry guns, but conversions started in 1940 and ended in 1945. There are certainly Air Force marked .22 cal No2 MKIV rifles with stock discs from the 1930s, but none were AM marked.

2) a large number of the AM conversions higher than serial number AM 544 seem to have been done with returned Irish rifles.

3) the AM 544 to AM 1534 serial number rifles were sold out of Ireland, not out of the UK. All were bought by Century arms and so marked.

Yes that's all correct But the rifles were sold to Ireland from UK stores.

It will be observed my rifle is marked No 2 MK 4 & has the U. King. stamp which I take to mean United Kingdom. Rifles marked No 2 MK 4 were sold from United Kingdom stores to Ireland before CAI imported them to the good old USA.

Among the No 2 MK 4 specifications is that they have a solid .22 cal barrel not a sleeved or tubed or relined barrel. It was put forward in that post that perhaps it would be more accurate to say rifles with sleeved or tubed or relined barrels are Pattern ' 14 No 2 rifles since that was the last time a sleeved or tubed or relined barrel was specified. I'm just saying I like that definition, but it wont really amount to a hill of beans (except us Enfield types) because the rifle will always be marked No 2 MK 4 :lol:

Well since you and MVolkJ have obviously done more research then I, I will leave you to your ideas.

cheers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jim Long

Among the No 2 MK 4 specifications is that they have a solid .22 cal barrel not a sleeved or tubed or relined barrel. It was put forward in that post that perhaps it would be more accurate to say rifles with sleeved or tubed or relined barrels are Pattern ' 14 No 2 rifles since that was the last time a sleeved or tubed or relined barrel was specified. I'm just saying I like that definition, but it wont really amount to a hill of beans (except us Enfield types) because the rifle will always be marked No 2 MK 4 :lol:

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Page 289 The Lee-Enfield
"Approval was given in April 1927 for the use of a limited number of tubed barrels from the .22 inch RF Pattern 14 rifles in the No2 MkIV* rifle, so as to use up quantities of these spare barrels."

In my experience, rifles distinctly marked No.2Mk.IV/IV* are original military conversions as done at the RSAF Enfield. Most of the ones that are not factory marked were converted by commercial companies like BSA and Parker-Hale. Many were marked later with the model designation by the respective governments that received them. The markings are usually distinctly different than the markings done at the RSAF Enfield.

---------- Post added at 01:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:22 PM ----------

Pattern '14 No.1 and No.2 were official military conversions performed by AG Parker and Westley Richards. They will be so marked on the butt sockets.