Does anyone make accurate reproduction MkV Sten foregrips?

I'd ideally like to return my recently purchased MkV Sten to it's more-or-less 1944 appearance. This being the case I've purchased one of those commonly seen repro foregrips, but discovered when it arrived that the internal diameter of the ring is 41mm. i.e. it is completely useless as it has no grip on the 38mm wide barrel nut and the wood isn't reamed out so that tightening the screw does anything.

I've a nagging suspicion they're all like that. (Maybe the factory in India concerned can't get hold of 38mm internal diameter tube?) Any other ideas?

Cheers,
Mark

And they look totally useless don't they? I'd suggest that you simply make one. Machine another piece of tube to suit and you're home and dry.

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Originally Posted by peregrinvs

Does anyone make accurate reproduction MkV Sten foregrips?

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The short answer is, “No.”

Looks like I'll have to mod one of the dodgy repros then. It's doable if I can swap the ring for a correctly sized one and slightly ream out the top of the wooden grip.

Is this what you have?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...en20grip-1.jpg

The ring is made from 1-5/8” tube that has a 1.509” inside diameter - 38.329mm. It just fits over 1.5” tube. I use the same tubing to make new end cap locking rings for Sterlings.

I guess that you could cut through the tube near the base with a hacksaw and cut out a small piece of the tube then pull the ends together and weld. It all depends on how good you are at welding on how successful this would be. Once the weld has been dressed and the grip fitted to the gun the weld wouldn't be seen because it would be hidden by the grip and the barrel nut.

Hey....., there's a FAR easier way...... and where there's a will, there's an easy way. Get a strip of banding steel the correct width (it's a stock size) and....... I'll go and make one and get it put up. Save yourselves a whole lot of aggro.

Are these reproduction grips the correct profile?
The " finger cut outs" look sharp, totally different from the finger grooves on the pistol grip. It's hard to find any good references for the correct profile, in the parts list the front grip dose look like a copy of the pistol grip ( finger cuts profile)

I have tube and some spare time!!!!!!!

Thew only original one I know of it at Warminster plus mine. There good photos in the little cheap Sten book too that anyone can scale-up.

With your woodworking skills, Peter, you could make some really good copies of the one you have…. and flog them for a pretty penny.

My woodworking skills extend to patching woodwork, fitting fore-ends and fixing the drawer runners on our wooden bedroom chest of drawers!

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Originally Posted by Vincent

Is this what you have?

http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/i...ten%20grip.jpg

The ring is made from 1-5/8” tube that has a 1.509” inside diameter - 38.329mm. It just fits over 1.5” tube. I use the same tubing to make new end cap locking rings for Sterlings.

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That metalwork on that one actually looks better made than mine. As mentioned, the ring is about 41mm inside which means it has no grip whatsoever.

---------- Post added at 09:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 AM ----------

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

I guess that you could cut through the tube near the base with a hacksaw and cut out a small piece of the tube then pull the ends together and weld. It all depends on how good you are at welding on how successful this would be. Once the weld has been dressed and the grip fitted to the gun the weld wouldn't be seen because it would be hidden by the grip and the barrel nut.

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I've never welded anything in my life I'm afraid and have no kit to do it. (I think I once brazed something in Craft Design Technology classes as school 30 years ago...) I was thinking of cutting the existing ring off the base, making a new one from 1.5" exhaust pipe coupler tube and then joining them together with metal epoxy. As mentioned, the join will be concealed when assembled.

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Originally Posted by peregrinvs

That metalwork on that one actually looks better made than mine. As mentioned, the ring is about 41mm inside which means it has no grip whatsoever.

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How about making a sleeve to go inside your ring? 1.5” PVC Pipe has a 38mm inside diameter.

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Originally Posted by Vincent

How about making a sleeve to go inside your ring? 1.5” PVC Pipe has a 38mm inside diameter.

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Hmmm... good idea. Not visually ideal, but it has definite labour saving possibilities. A local DIY supplier does 40mm black PVC pipe which presumably would have 2mm-ish walls. Might have to buy their shortest length and do some experimenting.

Hold fire......... will get pics and upload them tomorrow. MUCH simpler.........

Made from spring steel banding. Using this method, the tighter you screw the tighter the collar pulls the band against itself. Simplicity itself!

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Made from spring steel banding. Using this method, the tighter you screw the tighter the collar pulls the band against itself. Simplicity itself!

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Thanks for that. I'm clearly being thick, but as hard as I stare at the pictures I can't figure out how tightening the bolt would tighten the band. Could you spell out nice and simply for the hard of understanding how it works? :)

Simple..... Pic 1; The captive threaded nut* on the right hand side is sprung back into the hole in the left side - see pic 4. The whole band is now slid and positioned over the nut, barrel. Put the grip on, insert bolt and tighten. Bolt head pulls captive nut down AGAINST the other side of the band. Making it as tight as a proverbial ducks bottom.
These two examples made in an hour. All they need is phosphating.
* captive nut made from suitably BSF threaded, turned down hexagonal nut rivetted into band

Was the original band like the repro one where (obvious it was a better fit) the bolt went straight through and titghtened against the bare nut ?

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Originally Posted by peregrinvs

Hmmm... good idea. Not visually ideal, but it has definite labour saving possibilities. A local DIY supplier does 40mm black PVC pipe which presumably would have 2mm-ish walls. Might have to buy their shortest length and do some experimenting.

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Mark,when you send up your bits send the repro grip also and I'll resize the band to suit or make a new one.

On a personal note I think they look much better without the forward grip, would be similar having a Rolls Royce with a Halfords roof rack on......... just my opinion.

any pics of the actual wooden handles ?

Very nice, Peter. It looks a bit like the one on the Sterling Mk5 wood fore hand grip. They hold the grip very firmly.

---------- Post added at 08:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 AM ----------

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Originally Posted by philb

any pics of the actual wooden handles ?

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It's on page 79 of Peter's Sten book.

Haven't seen a repro but the original threaded hole went right through. And that was the problem. Once thge bolt and band had crushed the wood internally, top and bottom and bottomed out onto the barrel nut it was doubly useless! Pic of original grip in the Sten book. You'll just have to scale it up.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Haven't seen a repro but the original threaded hole went right through. And that was the problem. Once thge bolt and band had crushed the wood internally, top and bottom and bottomed out onto the barrel nut it was doubly useless!

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And all this time I thought the problem was “crunchies” loosening the barrel nut. ;)

Well, it was....... and knackering the ratchet teeth of the barrel nut and teeth. Mind you, they'd do that without the grip! But in doing that, the grip which was after all, only a friction fit on the nut would slip. And there's only one way to tighten the original - tighten the screw from underneath which just pulls the underside of the grip upwards. Whereas the 'sterling' method (thanks Vince.....) I show tightens up the grip by way of tightening the encircling band.

There were only a couple of small-arms that used to wind my clock up and the little Sten was one of them. Mind you, we didn't have to write long reports with the ammo indent either!

The Vickers was another. I used to tighten the packing so that it ran a bit sluggishly at first. So I'd shoot it/them until it/they loosened up and were running on-song and hand it/them over to the GPMG/SF induction course crews for the remainder of the morning on the field firing range at Netheravon. Me and my old boss, Major John Xxxxxx used sit and have our lunch with them after the shoot to gauge the interest. Yep, they loved it too!

I did see a de-ac Mk5 Sten for sale at a Militaria Fair at Malvern a couple of months ago with what I assumed to be an original grip. I concluded that it must be an original simply by the condition of it ( the grip)- it was in a hell of a state. I forget how much was being asked for the gun.

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

Mark,when you send up your bits send the repro grip also and I'll resize the band to suit or make a new one.

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You are a gentleman and a scholar sir. :)

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Originally Posted by peregrinvs

You are a gentleman and a scholar sir. :)

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Thanks Mark, not sure on the gentlemen etc, but the thought of PVC waste pipe or car exhaust and epoxy on a Sten.......... I just think it deserves better.

were the mkV grips/handles just made from one type of wood ?

if yes what was it ?

According to a lady from Frederick Tibbenhams (FT in a diamond) who made thousands of Sten butts and grips in 1944, the wood was Canadian maple that came over in billetted form that Tibbies machined into shape. UK stuff made/machined elsewhere was beech or birch. If you have a maple one, it#s virtually impossible to patch

Hi
Like peregrinvs I purchased a front grip for my Mk V, like his mine also turned out to be the wrong size at over 40mm internal diameter. So I did some research on others that I found selling these reproductions, so that any one who hasn't purchased one will have an idea on what size they might expect, and save them self's some time and trouble.

Mine was from Soldier of Fortune and is approximately 40mm
Epic Militaria inform me that theirs are 38/39mm you might be in luck, let us know if you try
E-bay seller avmc 123 quoted his at 41mm

Terry

are these grips pukka ?

Nope......, total crap!

philb, are those grips attached to your Sten Mk5 the result of a recent purchase or the result of spending hours in your garden shed?

Be interested to know/learn what the stamped-in markings are on the rear right side of the butt are. We used to mark Sten butts there with our WRC (the workshop repair code).

Incidentally, once we'd zeroed Mk5 Stens we used to stamp the gun number on the foresight protectors so that in future the same barrel would go back on the same gun. It was a bit of a hit-and-miss method of keeping the same barrel with the same gun. Mind you, zeroing a Sten was a bit jit and miss!!!!! Better than the Owens we had. Zeroing that was '.......just aim up or down a bit' !We also numbered the butt socket to the Mk5 gun as the butt socket was hand fitted to the gun. I use the words 'hand fitted' pretty loosely in relation to the Sten guns

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I use the words 'hand fitted' pretty loosely in relation to the Sten guns

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Perhaps "Loosely fitted?"

Would it be acceptable to use the larger capacity Lanchester mag on a Sten which, in theory, should fit or is there some reason why this shouldn't be attempted?

Shaggy-dog story coming up....... I've never used a big capacity Lanchester mag in a Sten but tellingly, the R-Navy in Singapore where they still had them used both Lanchester and Sten magazines on the ships. Whether that was because they were running short of big mags or that the small Sten mag was more convenient is a matter of conjecture. And something that I never really thought about until one of my old QM's, a veteran of Suez '56 told me about using Lanchester mags in his Stens while there. Fortunately for him/them, it was after the action. I relate it in the Sten book

not my grips , pic I used from a well know gun trader

haven't had time to even clean my mk5 yet

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

Would it be acceptable to use the larger capacity Lanchester mag on a Sten which, in theory, should fit or is there some reason why this shouldn't be attempted?

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Lanchester magazines do fit in the Sten and Sterling. Of the four I have, only one will take all 50 rounds and function as advertised. The other three are good for about 40 +/- rounds max. Above that number you never know when the floorplate is going to fly off.

The magazines that always work in the Sten are 19 round Indian conversion mags. I tried one right out of the box without cleaning it. It was absolutely filthy. Cosmoline went flying and made big mess, but fired all 19.

I have one of those Indian 19 rnd conversions of the Sten mag; it took me a long time before I found out why the mag had brass rods attached to the inside.

are these grips pukka or fake ?Attachment 73143Attachment 73144Attachment 73145

Attachment 73146

mk5 sten at the IWM

are these grips correct ?

philb, are you able to tell us where you saw the grips in post 41, please? Sometimes, it helps to know who is selling an item if its a fake or not.

Northridge International sells them Northridge International Inc. / STEN SUB MACHINE GUN PARTS

I have a box of them somewhere. They are all clearly used, some more than others. My guess is they are from another SMG, not a Sten

Answer to thread 41. They are about as straight as a corkscrew. Another frustrating going-bloody-nowhere thread.......... 44 answer to a simple question must be simply, NO, nobody does. End of story!!!!!!!!!

And yes, the grip in thread 42 is correct. Please, please Badger..........., end this farcical situation soon......

BRITISH WWII WOOD PISTOL GRIP | eBay

Listen Phil and any others. It is a duffer, fake, not real, not even remotely like the real McCoy, you are being conned. The real McCoy cups the barrel nut from below and is screwed into the band from underneath where a lug on the band seats into the top hidden part of the grip. It works loose after 20 minutes so you tighten the screw which splits the grip.

Lord............, hear my prayers............

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Lord............, hear my prayers............

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:rofl::sos::banghead:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...hb0xjpeg-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...jz6djpeg-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cjp0jpeg-1.jpg

To be honest, that doesn't look real either BP, - but I could be wrong as I haven't seen one for an hour or so. The rake angle rearwards looks too great........ they are from memory, more square to the main axis of the gun. But it does show the top of the grip radially cupping the barrel nut above the actual 'grip' part. It's this extended section that splits, front and rear weakest points, just like that example when it's tightened up. A front-end elevation photo will illustrate it, as will an under plan view showing the screw that is fairly central in the grip.

Just me thinking/remembering out aloud.......

Could you post a picture of the one you have, Peter?

Vince.......... It's me you're talking to! Asking me, a total computer idiot to do anything remotely ambitious with computers is not something I am capable of. If it was bridge stresses or loads or rotating moments about a vertical plane, I'd be your man!

Ok. What’s rearward rake angle of the one you have?

Is it like this one?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5/sten10-1.jpg


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2020Copy-1.jpg

Yep, point taken. That one just looks raked a little too far rearwards but it MUST be correct. It's the end elevation that is needed to show the cup effect of the grip around the barrel nut, You can see from that and the position of the band, that the bolt is pretty well central in the underside of the grip.

Could there be two or three different versions of the grip? The one on page 77 doesn’t look the same as the one on page 79 of your Sten book. The one in post 53 also looks different.

The one Brit plumber posted in post 49 could be the same as the one in post 53, just slightly modified. Maybe a crunchie “customized” it?

I see what you are saying about rearward rake. The one on page 79 of your Sten book looks like it has very little rake compared to the others.

I think that they were all made by Tibbehnams. But whatever the rake angle, none of the monstrosities shown as advertised as 'genuine' are remotely genuine.

The Gnome-Rhône grip has a lot of rake.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../2v357ih-1.jpg

I wonder how it is attached to the magazine housing.

Some good pictures in this thread https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=2403&page=8

A good example of '....give a butcher a hammer and a hacksaw and he'll come up with something'. That safety mechanism that rotates around the front of the casing is something that defies belief. Surely not.......... The K.I.S.S 'through-bolt' safety mechanism really was a simple and safe as it can possibly be! But as it's often said, where there's a will, there's a difficult way

I am looking at the safety and wondering why it has the notch that lines up with the cocking slot. Is it to put the gun on safe with it cocked?

It looks like a dual purpose safety, in the photographed position it appears to lock the bolt closed, preventing the handle from being caught on something and pulled rear, causing an AD. But with the weapon cocked, the "sheetmetal" safety would appear to prevent the bolt from travelling far enough to load a round and fire. In the same fashion as a C96 Broomhandle Mauser safety works, the hammer will still fly when the trigger is pressed, but the safety will prevent the hammer from hitting the firing pin by an 1/8" of an inch.

Personally this Sten safety seems a little much, and is probably designed in response to all of the rumors of runaway Stens and whatnot.

A gun can never have too many safeties, unless it's more than one, more than one is too many safeties. LOL

While researching the Sten book, we dropped several old Stens butt first on the hardwood floor of the range hut while loaded with blanks just to test the security of the through-bolt forward safety and the rear slot safe position. The cocking handle just stayed where it was. On both guns, the butt frame welds broke! The real safety 'problem' was if the trigger to sear spring broke. Then the gun would fire until the mag was empty. Incidentally, that long spring was taken/adapted from the old pre and post war Sturmey-Archer cycle 3-speed hub change mechanism. Another useless piece of info from Harold Turpins papers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6NaBkGbVNk

“Lorry drop” story research?

That test for the video was slightly different Vince. That showed that if an UN-modified gun was dropped from over 9" or so, then the gun wouldnt(?) fire but the inertia would simply cause the breech block to cock on the sear. Under 2" drop and the breech block wouldn't catch the next round in the magazine. But between 3" and 9", the gun MIGHT fire. I say 'might' as whether it will or not depends on whether the forward momentum of the breech block will chamber and have sufficient momentum to punch the cap. Getting a bit technical now but the further the block travels the more stored energy and all that momentum stuff.............

It shows that the Sten wasn't all the pure unsafe bullshine that has been said of it.

That’s interesting information Peter. I was thinking there must be only a narrow window where the breech block can strip a round and not travel far enough back to engage the sear. Your test confirmed my suspicion.

The term “Safety” has always bothered me. It’s the convention but it just seems wrong to use it on a gun. Loaded guns are never safe and should be treated accordingly. I can’t tell you how many times I have sold a pistol to someone who said they wanted a safety because they have small children in the house. Yes, they really believed putting on the “safety” would make a gun safe. Sorry to go off on a tangent.

I had a Long Branch Sten among a few...and shot it for some time. I don't know how many times I heard the unsafe stories, loading it and throwing it in a house and it would go off...so I cocked it and proceeded to pound the butt on a wood floor for all to see. It didn't go forward nor did it break nor damage the butt. The cocking handle CAN be caught by webbing or a snag and have it pick up a round and fire though, we did see that sort of thing happen with the blowbacks...with API...

Is there any chance that any-one has a copy of the original Engineering drawings for the Sten fore-grip that they could post on this thread, please?

I don't think that you will find the drawings of anything to do with the Sten except for the general arrangement drawing. This is because they have been 'blocked'. The reason is that a group of 'scandinavian' biker gangs in the 70's were feeling that their bikes didn't show them off in their usual teetotal, churchgoing, philanthropical and clean living way of life - so they were going to enhance their image by making sub-machine guns, using the original drawings. The MoD were requested by the Danish Police to block the drawings - which they did!

There was also a case in the US where a publisher was charged with releasing critical drawings. And if you do it in the UK........... Well......., it'd be likened to cannibalism......

came across this , is this a real mk5 front grip ?

Nope, crap repro.

phil, I give you 10 out of 10 for your efforts in trying.

was on an auction in the usa, as real with a bfa

Why in heavens name doesn't someone with access to a real one just take accurate dimensions, make a hardwood replica then go and have 50 exact copies turned/replicated on a wood-turning pantograph equipped lathe. It REALLY is THAT simple! You've just got to put your hand into your pocket to start with. Jeeeees, I do it several times a year for batches of telescope lenses at £1000 (and sometimes MUCH more, believe me.....) a time. A small profit ensures that you sell the lot over a year.

From the start of this thread back in whenever, to now they could have been measured, modeled (I'm sure that should be modelled), made and selling.