LOOKING for INFO on SAVAGE Ts

I came across a complete T set up. Transit case, Scope, scope can, 42 dated SAVAGE No.4MK1* T

SAVAGE is NOT T stamped
Savage is NOT TR stamped on wrist
SAVAGE is NOT US PROPERTY MARKED (does have the square S & flaming bomb) I hope to check my books tonight....

S51 on the heel... NO Scope numbers on the butt stock

i recall these very rare for back up rebuilds & never made it out for war? Recall SAVAGES the most faked T .....

Any addition info, WARNINGS or things to look for..... ?????? would be appreciated

Just noticed NON sniper sling swivel as well....

No "T" stamp as it was never completed with the addition of a scope at H&H
No "TR" stamp as it wasn't selected for above average accuracy at BSA
US Property mark will be there but it's mostly under the front pad.
S51 on buttstock since the conversion was performed at H&H. No scope number since it was never completed.
I would't exactly call them rare. In fact they're the most common encountered "Less Telescope" No.4T rifles
It's legit to make a long story short. The guard screw swivels never came on line until late '44 or '45. On earlier rifles they were added later.

Hello. Briefly, the rifle looks correct as the early rifle conversions tend not to be typically marked with the T TR etc., although the S51 is usually there if it retains its original butt. The absence of a triangular swivel is also not unusual on these early rifles, especially if they left UK service not long after the war.

The scope tin is serial numbered to a BSA 1943 rifle. The absence of a scope number on the butt suggests it is indeed one of the 'scopeless' batch of converted rifles. Being a 13C rifle it is also in the expected serial number range.

Some closer-up photo's might allow people to give you more detailed comments.

Hope this helps anyway.

For any members interested in more research or background on this type of piece, check the MKL and read this article by Advisory Panel member Lance:

1942 No.4 Mk1*(T) Savage Sniper Rifle (less scope)

Regards,
Doug

A couple of the Savage conversions I have seen in the 14C range had 1945 dated 5 groove barrels.

These were the unfinished guns, pads but no scope mounted.

What is the story on these? were they actually late war conversions?

I had one with a '45 dated, British mfg., five groove barrel. I can't remember exactly but I think it was a 13C or 14C Mk.1*. I've also had a couple with British walnut forends installed during the conversion. They both sported the correct Enfield examiners mark on the forends which were also serial numbered to the rifles so not later replacements. I think Skennerton eludes to some of the original birch forends not being up to the standard during conversion process. It's speculation but I'd guess the conversions were done throughout the wartime time frame. It's also speculation as to why more of them weren't competed with the addition of a telescope and the CES. I don't think I've ever had a Savage conversion that wasn't a "less telescope" rifle. Even my Mk.1, sn, 0C160 was never completed at H&H.

So it is a bit of a mystery, as it seems the Savage scope-less trifles are not that uncommon. I do not recall if the rifles I saw had walnut forends or not, the one I have has Birch. I would expect that the once a UK barrel was installed, the forend fit was no longer correct.

I am pretty sure the one I have has a Savage marked I rear sight, which is kind odd considering that it is a 14C rifle. I wondered if they were perhaps not a batch of supposedly accurate US rifles, but that would not explain the UK 1945 dated barrel.

The other thing puzzling is that the Savage rifles at that time were supposed to be still US property and accounted for in some unique manner.

Skennerton mentions these rifles being sent to SA or Rhodesia for use as marksman's rifles(?) but does not give any details. When the big SA import came in around 1994, there were a lot of like new SA 32C and 33C series rifles that came out. Could it be that the Savage rifles were distributed as part of the post war settlement of accounts, and that as pat of the that the UK MOD was going to supply some number of sniper rifles, and that portion of the contract transfer was canceled?

From researching UK transfers to Ireland I have found examples where requirements were "indented" to the colonial office and by the time the items were ready for transfer, the Irish Parliament/finance department had decided not to spend the money. This appears a in a few cases on Vickers MG parts such a spare barrels and locks. Could it be something like this.

Total speculation on my part no evidence of it, the only other explanation could be some of the rifles are restored sporters, but that would not explain why the preponderance of 1945 5 groove barrels show up.

Thank you all.... SO not as rare as i thought? DO I NEED ANOTHER T?

There is always the need for more...........

The reason why some US rifles converted to T spec have UK made 5 groove barrels could be down to the fact that the original spec was that the rifles should conform exactly to the spec laid down. And that spec was drawn up while the norm was the original, early spec. - 5 grooves, split foresight block band etc etc. So original spec it had to be. But later common sense prevailed and as we now know, plenty of two groovers and solid block foresight block bands passed through the doors.

so is it BEST to leave a T like this without the scope? even though there is one.... just not born with it.... I bought the transit case.... & the guy said he has everything.... AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOt sure why he would break all apart & sell off.......

The two groove barrels most Savage rifles were fitted with didn't make the No.4T conversion specification hence the change to a five groove barrel. Early Savage Mk.1 rifles retained the six groove barrel. I think some two groove barrels also slipped through the conversion process too so nothing is written in stone. The forends will interchange with no problem regardless of who made the barrel. I'd guess that British made replacements were used when the existing forend wouldn't meet the conversion standard for whatever reason. As for the Savage made Mk.1 rear sights, I think many were supplied as spares to both England and Canada. They can be found as modified on Long Branch conversions also.

I had 400 or so of the South African War Reserve No.4's as imported by Interarms in the early to mid 1990's. There were quite a few Savage rifles, (probably 50 or 60 give or take), and a very few Long Branch in the mix which was mostly post war Fazakerley production; Mk.1, 1/2 conversions, and some early Mk.2. Some of the Savage rifles were in new condition other than handling marks in the woodwork. I found 10 or 12 early Mk.1 Savage rifles, one 5Cxxxx that I still have in original condition. All of the Savage rifles were dated '41 and '42. I don't recall seeing any dated '43 or the later undated '44 production rifles.

Of the four T's I shoot when I can shoot I find the 12C and 13C Savage T rifles very accurate. That is interesting to me.

One thing you can say about the OP's rifle is that it has obviously had some service use from that amount of wear, at least IMO.

Some countries seem to have been in the habit of removing pads from No.4(T)s that were not being used as such. That didn't happen here, so perhaps it was actually used as intended.

The SOPs on matching numbers etc. may not have been followed at all in some of those countries, particularly the smaller, darker ones which had fewer rifles, and make little use of them.

Watson No.32 Mk.I No. 2203 if anyone is looking for it?

As for barrels and rifling, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from that without knowing barrel date and maker.

Ex No4 T rifles were fairly common as DP No4's with screws glued into the holes and not so common as SKN rifles.

£Watson 2203. In the batch where it could be 1942 or '43. The year date bounces about a bit in that serial number range