1768 Charleville

Good Evening All. From my previous posts you can see I was in the hunt for a Charleville. Yesterday, I got my new, antique "68 Charleville to the range with great success and much smoke. It was amazing to be firing a weapon that has a very high probability of having been in the Revolution.

In 1968 we were on our annual summer trip to Upstate NY and visited Fort Ticonderoga. I saw a Charleville being fired and have been waiting 48 years to fire my own. Wish this could have been done when my dad was with us as he to was in awe of seeing that weapon fired at such a historic place. Randy

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Thats one heck of a lonnnng sighting radius......:D

Have yet to see a shootable example to take home! Very nice.

Now that is a great looking smoking pole!!!!
Congrats on finding your dream piece.

Semper Fi
Phil

Thanks AZPhil. Getting ready to take her out this coming Saturday to try shooting at combat ranges. Will try her at 50 yards and see if I can hit the paper at 75 yards. Getting lead on paper is great, but the smoke is probably the best part. Randy

Good Evening. In 1968, I asked my mom if i could take home one of the Charlevilles at Fort Ticonderoga. To keep me quiet, she bought me this can and i have been looking at that Continental soldier performing the Manual of Arms for 48 years. It has kept the dream of owning the Charleville alive for all these years till the '68 came in last month. Thanks mom.

In the last week or so, I just got this image in my head of me and my Charleville performing Von Steuben's Manual of Arms in a period uniform. Now I just have to find me some Redcoats. Randy

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if you haven't already seen it, i recommend taking a look at "britishmuzzleloaders" youtube channel. https://www.youtube.com/user/britishmuzzleloaders

he gets out there in full period dress and runs musketry drills etc with a wide variety of british firearms, plus experiments with various period techniques. all videoed, edited, then presented with excellent dialogue and often period documentation.

Two notes:

1. A formation of soldiers of the period was arrayed as to be an overwhelming psychological presence. They would advance with drums thundering, steps thundering, holding their muskets upright at shoulder arms ("Shoulder Firelock") with gleaming bayonets mounted at the top. In that position the soldier and his weapon reached about seven feet in height. Imagine a seven-foot high bristling thicket of gleaming bayonets swaying with every marching step, each one representing at best a quick death from a pierced heart and at worst a slow death from sepsis. No man wanted to die; few wanted to die of musket fire; fewer still wanted to die from the bayonet.

The Charleville was the American Colonies' tool adopted to oppose the British Brown Bess musket, a volley-fire weapon.

Good score!

2. For those of you unable to afford a musket and who either live in the area or considering a visit Colonial Williamsburg, VA, the historical Colonial Capital of the Colonies, has just opened a new attraction that offers you the ability to fire muskets. The cost is $119 including ammunition, targets, safety equipment, etc.

More HERE.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...sketashx-1.jpg


Bob

Thanks for the video and information on Williamsburg. I remember seeing the gunsmiths working up Pennsylvania Long Rifles as a kid and it was 3-year wait in 1969. Cannot imagine what it must be now. Parents had a friend who got one and it hung over the mantle on his fireplace. Dad had to explain why it had not bayonet.

Would love to hang my Charleville over the mantle of a fireplace. Not doable here in Miami. Randy

Good Afternoon. Got the '68 to combat range (50 yards) and did get lead on the paper. Still shooting low but that is more an issue with me than the Charleville. Thanks again to those who helped get this old warhorse back to making smoke. Next month will give 75 yards a GO with a few prayers. Randy

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Did not make it to 75 yards today but the Charleville shot well at 50. This is my third time out and have shot about 40 runs up to today. Yesterday, I shot 5 rounds with no issues, did a bit of cleaning with water, and then hit the wall. I kept getting the pan igniting but not the main charge. After some adjustments to the flint, I again had no main-charge ignition. Finally, I charged the pan and rolled the musket enough to shake some of the 4F into the touchhole. Voila!! For the next 15 rounds, I worked my priming the same way and all 15 rounds went off on the first shot. Do not mind doing this from know on but curious to what happened? Thanks, Randy

Make sure the breach is absolutely dry and the vent is clear. Use not so wet patches then dry patches when cleaning at the range.

gsimmons is correct. Cleaning with water, you may well have pushed "mud" into the vent and that caused your problem, as I am sure you are aware, when cleaning at the range, you must be sure that the bore and the breech are completely dry and that the vent is clear. A vent pick will remove any possible obstruction from the vent after such cleaning and should be religiously done after cleaning.

I have to say the when shooting a smoothbore with a correctly sized ball (undersized by rifle standards) I will not clean the bore at the range, it is part of the joy of military musket shooting. Occasional vent cleaning is necessary though, each soldier was issued a vent pick and was trained to use it. :)

Yes, the patch was very wet but I did clear the vent each time. From your suggestion, I just dampen the patch, run more dry patches through, and blow out the vent with some compressed air. Thanks, Randy

Sometimes flintlock ignition can be improved by leaving a piece of music wire in the touch-hole when priming and using the least amount of priming possible to speed the main charge. What is your starting load and how did you determine the condition of the breech for safety? I think thats great your wringing that one out, flintlocks are fun to shoot but are high maintenance, you gotta want to do it for sure.

I shoot my flintlocks in competition, and to get through a round without hitches the touchhole must always remain clear and "crud-free".

Furthermore, for safety reasons one should first load the main charge and ball, adding the ignition charge to the pan as the last action before aiming, cocking and firing.

To achieve all these conditions, it is advisable to proceed as follows:

1) Half-cock the lock.
2) Insert the pick into the touch-hole and close the frizzen down on it to hold it in place.
3) Use a moist (NOT WET) swab to clean out the bore. A safety benefit of this is to douse any conceivable burning fragments in the bore that could ignite the main charge when it is poured down the barrel. At the same time, the clamped pick prevents crud or moisture being pushed into the touch-hole.
4) Run a dry swab through the bore.
5) Pour in the main charge and load the patched ball. Push down firmly, but do not ram tight.
- I strongly recommend making a witness mark on the ramrod so that you can see that the ball is properly seated and you have neither forgotten the main charge nor double-charged.
6) Open the frizzen, remove the pick, and pour in the fine ignition powder. Close the frizzen.
7) Aim, cock and fire.

It is the flash from the ignition through the touch-hole that should ignite the main charge, not a much slower grain-to-grain progression of burning along the ignition channel. If you ignore the correct use of the pick to keep the channel free for every shot (and not just to clear the hole when it has already become blocked), then, when the ball is rammed down, some of the relatively coarse main charge will be forced into the touch-hole, and ignition will be slower, tending to a noticeable "flash - fizz - bang" sequence, during which time the barrel has moved - unless you are a lot steadier than I am! And after a while, the touch-hole will become sifficiently clogged with burnt powder residue to cause misfires.

Try it and let us know if it works for you!

Thanks all. Our County Range requires we load ball/powder at tables behind the firing line and prime when we are on the firing line. Agreed, this is much safer but does slow thing down a bit.

I did have a gunsmith checkout the breech plug and it was cleared to fire.

As one who day job is teaching history, I am thrilled to be able to fire this piece of US history. It still amazes me that I can do this and the weapon is still accurate enough to take on the Redcoats.

Finding the correct antique bayonet has become my next challenge but they do appear on Ebay from time to time.

Randy

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Originally Posted by rescuerandy2

Good Evening All. From my previous posts you can see I was in the hunt for a Charleville. Yesterday, I got my new, antique "68 Charleville to the range with great success and much smoke. It was amazing to be firing a weapon that has a very high probability of having been in the Revolution.

In 1968 we were on our annual summer trip to Upstate NY and visited Fort Ticonderoga. I saw a Charleville being fired and have been waiting 48 years to fire my own. Wish this could have been done when my dad was with us as he to was in awe of seeing that weapon fired at such a historic place. Randy

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Thanks for sharing that memory. Our family did the same. Gunsmoke & The sound wave of the ceremonial cannon...felt that BOOM !

MikeVee. Thanks for shaking loose a bit more of the my story. Yes, the cannon was unreal and after that I made it a point to touch every cannon at the fort. It was raining and my folks thought I was crazy. I am convinced that my "crazy day" at Ticonderoga set me on my life's path. If my mom would not have been there, I am sure dad would have joined me. Randy

OK. Here's another part of the fort that stuck in a kids memory. The privy which I think was like a wall at adult 'seat height' with lumber railings over to the back wall to keep someone from falling in - I think.

My mom, the lady who only let us stay at Holiday Inns because they put those paper seals on the toilets, was not happy with the facilities at Ticonderoga too. Randy

GEW8805 mentioned that he does not have to clean his musket while at the range. This was prefaced with an understanding that we are using bullets that are smaller than bore diameter. To achieve this result, how much under bore diameter would be enough to accomplish a day at the range without having to clean the bore. Thanks, Randy.

What kind of load are you using now?

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Originally Posted by rescuerandy2

GEW8805 mentioned that he does not have to clean his musket while at the range. This was prefaced with an understanding that we are using bullets that are smaller than bore diameter. To achieve this result, how much under bore diameter would be enough to accomplish a day at the range without having to clean the bore. Thanks, Randy.

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I use the period standard .64 diameter round ball in the .69 caliber musket. Main powder charge of 60 to 75 grains (not including priming, of course). This is a light charge compared to the original cartridge, and gives moderate accuracy out to 50 yards, I am a casual shooter.

Good Morning All. I have been using Lyman .662 with 80 grains of FF in a paper cartridge that goes with the charge. Who makes .64 molds? Thanks, Randy

Good Afternoon. Just back from my best day at the range. This was at 50 yards with no misfires, easy loading, and much smoke. I did not have to clean between rounds and there was no need to plug the vent while loading. Worked flawlessly and probably had to do as much with the operator getting more familiar with his weapon and 18th century technology. Randy

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I always equate shooting flintlock rifles like instinctive archery, practice and familiarity builds confidence with repetition and doing everything the same way each time you load. I'd say you have good results without a doubt!

Thanks. You are spot on as I was the most comfortable I have ever been shooting the flintlock. My loading, aiming, and firing just seemed to flow. Yes, I was in the zone.

After yesterday's success, my appreciation of the smoothbore has been greatly raised. However, I do appreciate that I am not on some godforsaken battlefield far from home with all hell breaking all around me. Randy

Nice Charleville and shooting!

Now, you need a Spanish musket. (Spain was another Ally during the Revolution and spectacularly recaptured Florida from the British).

During the Bi-Centennial, I portrayed a 'green coated' British Loyalist. Paper Blank and Ball Cartridges were torn with the teeth to provide priming, prior to charging the bore.

For safety, we had a leather 'hammer stahl', that covered the frizzen (which was actually called the 'hammer' in the 18th century). When the order Load was given, the 'cock' was placed on 'half-cock', the frizzen (hammer) then was opened, a cartridge was drawn from the cartridge-box, torn with the teeth, and the pan primed. The frizzen (hammer) was closed, the butt was placed on the ground and the barrel was loaded. Then the musket was shouldered.

At the order 'Make Ready', the musket was brought across the body to waist height with barrel angled upward. The Cock was placed on Full Cock and the 'stahl' was removed from the frizzen (hammer). Then the orders Present (take aim) and Fire, were given. Then back to Load. We fired 4 shots per minute.

I had a 'Navy Arms' (Japanese built) reproduction Charleville Musket. It fired well, once the frizzen-spring was replaced. (The factory spring broke after a few trial firings). Original French Arms seem to show a very high standard of workmanship.

I did prefer the greater 'drop' in the butt of my British made (Coach & Harness) 'Brown Bess'. The Charleville has a very high comb. During 'live fire' matches with 'ball', the stock comb would bruise my cheek. This made the second day of a match quite painful. (Talk about a flinch)!

From my observation, during the Napoleonic Era, the French muskets had the stock comb 'dished' to eliminate the 'high comb' problem.

As 'rescuerandy' has noted, you get more proficient in firing a musket with practice. Like 18th Century soldiers, we had a 'pick and wisk' (small brush), connected to our cartridge box strap by fine chains. This was utilized to clean the vent and pan.

Since our cartridges were loaded with 1F powder and this was used for priming and the barrel charge, we used good English Flints, and, wiped the Frizzen and edge of the Flint, with the thumb, prior to returning the leather 'stahl' on the Frizzen.

A linen rag was kept in the cartridge box, to clean the soot off the thumb and forefinger, as you reached for the next cartridge. A "Y" shaped screw-driver/tool was also kept in the cartridge box, to tighten the jaws of the Cock or knap the edge of the Flint, if your musket had failed to fire. (You came to do these things automatically and with great economy of motion).

(At the Henry Ford Museum - Greenfield Village - 1975).

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I am jealous. At our County range, the rules state that I must load the musket at a table behind the shooting bench and charge then weapon at the shooting bench which is on the firing line. So, to be able to train to get off 3/4 rounds a minute is not doable at our range. However, I would love to give it a go.

Now, 4 rounds a minute is fantastic and more kudos when done in period uniforms. Who made your uniform and what did it cost? Must now decide between a Brown Bess or Continental's uniform.

Will give 75 yards a go on Sunday. Thanks, Randy.

Back in the 1970s, most of us probably had around $1,000 tied up in our musket, accoutrements, and uniform. (But, then you could find an original Brown Bess bayonet for $25. A 'Navy Arms' Italian Brown Bess probably cost $350 assembled or $200 in kit form).

We made a lot of our own stuff, (shirts, britches, accoutrements and period tents). I got to camp on The Plains of Abraham, Crown Point, Ft. Niagara, and at Yorktown. A lot of 'knowhow' came from books like "Sketch Book 76", by Robert L. Klinger, and other references by Philip Katcher and others.

A lot of effort went into studying original items. I had a friend, who was a talented leather worker, that went on to 'Sturbridge Village'. He made shoes and helmets. Our uniform coats were made from an accurate pattern by talented ladies. We cast our own buttons and sewed them on our coats and waistcoats.

I was in a Loyalist unit that served in Detroit during the Revolution. In this day and age, I would give serious thought to a Spanish Soldier impression. They had a 'long reach' and served in some epic campaigns. One force came all the way from St. Louis (Mo.) and captured the little British outpost of St. Joseph (Niles, Michigan). "They (The Brits) didn't see that coming" !

As a kid who grew up on Long Island, my hometown was part of the spying operations depicted in "Turn". So, my uniform interest is with the NY Militia if I ever get to the point of a period uniform.

I have seen some folks online who custom sew period uniforms for what seems like reasonable costs for quality work. I would also have to admit that you do not want me anywhere near needles and scissors. However, I am good with 750 degree molten lead. Thanks, Randy.

Detroit and Michigan were part of Quebec, during the Revolution. We were the Northwest Frontier. The British did not leave Detroit until 1796. Some Loyalists, who served on the 'Upper Lakes', settled in Windsor and Amherstburg, Ontario.

Good Morning. In my quest to get as close to the Revolutionary War as I can with my Charleville, what powder charge would be equivalent to the period? I am using FFg right now and am curious about 1Fg. With a 248 year old weapon, I am keeping the load to 80grains out of respect and to keep mommy happy. Thanks, Randy.

80 grains sounds reasonable. I would prefer to use 1F for 'Ball' loads in .69 and .75 caliber. I used about 90-95 grains in live rounds for my 'Brown Bess', but, some of that went into the pan for priming. Even with a 46 inch long barrel, it is unlikely all the powder burned in the barrel.

Remember Randy, that even at this point, you have probably fired more rounds in your Charleville than the average 18th Century soldier did in long years of Peace Time Service. Governments and Colonels were too cheap to allow much practice back then with 'live firing'. (IIRC - It has been estimated, maybe 5 rounds a year)!

At 5 rounds/year, I would definitely be waaay more practiced than my 18th century peers. I probably have put 60 rounds through it since purchase and have cast several hundred balls ready to make smoke.

Tomorrow, will be giving it a go with an antique bayonet. The combo is simply fearsome just looking at. All I could think of when I fixed the bayonet was a Greek phalanx and how 18th century soldiers were still trained in shock tactics that were pushing 2500 years by the time of the Revolution. Randy

They may not have live fired their muskets that often, but they would have drilled with it every day. Included as part of the manual of arms was the loading and firing sequences.

Boy does this sound familiar. I do remember practicing D&C in my college dorm room for ROTC. The school would not let me play/practice with our M-16s away from the Battalion building. Randy

Good Morning. Over the years, have read descriptions of the smoothbore-era referencing the fire commands being ready, level, fire. The authors said that aiming was way too poor with military smoothbores. With this swirling in the back of my mind, I had been wondering about the front and rudimentary rear sight (notch in rear barrel band) on the Charleville. However, after shooting the Charleville while getting into the loading rhythm, I am getting good accuracy at 50/75 yards. I now wonder if these authors are just generalizing about the lack of accuracy because the smoothbore cannot reach out to 100yards+ with good accuracy. I am pretty sure I can now hit what I aim at up to 75yards. Randy

Good Afternoon. Got one shot at 75 and did better than at 25 and 50 today. Last shot of the day was at 75 before time to clean and go home. Temps way too high in Miami at 1200 to stay for more shooting. For the record, 85gr FF, .65cal ball, and patched with paper from the cartridge. Randy

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