I recently picked up a No4 mk2* pig sticker bayonet with apparently Australian ownership markings and also the remains of desert brown paint. This is the only example with this combination of markings and desert paint indicating possible issue to Australian use in North Africa. Is any-one else aware of a similar bayonet, please?
Can we see piccies, please.
Generally speaking, North Africa and Italy were fought mainly with No1 rifles. Call me a bit of a cynic but an 'Australian' sand coloured No4 bayonet sound like some flowery description you'd you'd read on e-bay. I'd be thinking '.....buy the gun and not the story........'. I could be wrong of course
Yes if it was painted Kimberly red then I would say it is an Aussie issue !!!! "Mainland use only" !!!! :yikes: or some one has decided to paint er up and put in a story like PL says!!!!
Yes pictures would be good so investigation can go into the Australian stamping's on the bayonet I hope it did not cost you too much please excuse me for being cynical but I have been trapped early on in my flea bay buys but am pretty much onto the not so good sellers now.
You find if you ask them pertinent questions and get no reply or replies that are just outlandish it isn't a good buy.
Put the acetone to 'er and forget the story. See how clean it is underneath.
I have seen No4's in tan paint but never Australian in fact I do not remember ever seeing a No4 with any markings related to Australian use, South African would be my first guess as they painted a lot of stuff sand colored.
I believe they made their own #1 Mk3's until about 1950...so that sounds correct...Quote:
Originally Posted by old-smithy
I picked it up at a Militaria Fair a few months back with 3 other Pig sticker bayonets and I paid £15 for it which I think was a fair price. The reason I think it Australian is that it has a small "D" with a broad arrow above which I take to be Australian ownership/acceptance unless anyone can come up with an alternative explanation for this marking. I have 2 other No4 mk2* pig sticker bayonets with similar markings but without the remains of sand colour paint. I don't own a digital camera and so the only way of uploading pictures would be to take them with a film camera then scan but I doubt the markings would show clearly with this method. I have seen a photograph of pig sticker bayonets being used for mine detection in North Africa but can't remember where I saw the photo only that it was in a book.
Psssssst......... come a bit closer......... If old-smithy says what he says, they you can be rest assured that he'll have hit the proverbial nail right on the head! I've never known him to be wrong yet. Maybe one day.........
Thanks Peter, but I have been wrong in the past, I will need to dig out Spirit of the Pike and see if Graham mentions them, they may have used them on ten guns rather than No4 rifles????
Could some-one please advise what marking an upper case "D" with arrow above indicates? I thought it to be Australian issue/ownership. There is/was a similar bayonet on the World bayonet website.
Do you mean the ED combination?
No, just a single "D" with an arrow above; I have 3 off No4 mk2* Pigstickers with this marking on but only the single example with the desert brown paintwork. Others have noted this marking but as far as I am aware it has only been seen on the mk2* version. I knew the example which I have is very unusual with the desert paintwork as soon as I saw it and that is why I purchased it. I don't believe that the trader knew too much about bayonets because I also purchased another relatively rare Pigsticker at the same time, also priced @ £15, a No4 mk2 by Canadian Arsenals in near mint condition with scabbard.
Perhaps some pictures uploaded of the item would expedite and assist in the recognition of the markings and subsequent knowledge improvements bit hard to get a picture from type set.........
Wasn't the Oz property mark D arrow D at the time? D with arrow being well before the WWII era.
I read a lot on this forum but rarely comment unless I think it necessary. Old Smithy (Carl) will know who I am when I say I purchased a collection of Australian bayonets recently. Australians were issued No4 bayonets when they were deployed overseas not when residing in Australia. It is hard to confirm this is one of these bayonets without photos of the markings. The markings as described are basically correct with the exception that they are always accompanied by the makers mark which has not been mentioned here. Such markings are recorded in one of the books however if I mention what these are then it is simply a matter to say "Yes. That is what I have". Need to know what the makers make is and of course the bayonet will be a model MkII*
I have now managed to get someone to digital photograph the bayonet and a do close-up of the markings which hopefully they will e-mail to me when they return home from a weekend away. Provided that I can figure out how to get the pictures from the e-mail up-loaded onto this site with my limited I.T. skills I hope to have the pictures on this thread next week at some point- please watch this space. There is a makers mark next to the arrow over D. I will have to check what the mark is as I'm currently using a computer in a different location to the bayonet but from memory I think it is N56.
Has any-one ever seen any wartime photographs of Australian soldiers using No4 rifles/bayonets in North Africa, please? I have seen 2 or 3 wartime photographs in books of British soldiers armed with No4 rifles/bayonets in North Africa although the SMLE seems to have been used much more commonly.
Yes, that is the correct maker. The arrow over the D in combination with N56 is attributed to Australian issue whilst in Europe. The stamping of such is on the forward end of the socket near the blade (Not on the side of the socket). I am not aware of any Australians being issued these in North Africa, however, it is possible just not recorded as such, that I am aware of anyway. I hope you get to upload the photos I look forward to seeing them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
The arrow should be inside the D, and the use of that particular mark had well and truly ceased by WW2.
Do not agree that the arrow should be inside the D. The arrow inside the D is a "Land Service" marking and the majority of all my British Pattern 1907 sword bayonets used by Australia in WW1 bear this stamp on the pommel and on the leather (rear ) of the scabbard. Whilst there is a reference to this in Ian Skennerton's book "The Broad Arrow" the best reference is a fact sheet from the Lithgow Small Arms Factory Museum entitled "FS-001 Markings on Australian SMLE Rifles" it says this marking was only used up to 1920. After the 1920s the D^D started and continued until the 1960's. The D over Arrow or Arrow over D (Defence Department marking) appears across a broad range of equipment. Renowned bayonet guru Graham Priest makes mention (including a picture) of this Australian marking in question in his book covering the No4 rifle and its bayonets entitled "Spirit of the Pike". Unfortunately I have never been able to date when this mark in question started/ended.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1967
I think a picture might be a big help here.
I agree whole heartedly Mike. Yet another thread that will drift on and on and on forever into legend and folklore and hypothesis - and the realms of conjecture - unless there's a photo
See Threads #2, #4, #14
And the possibility of pics in Thread #17
Getting just like the ACME ads but wait there's more buy 1 get 2 free or are we dealing with the laws of relativity !
Well reminded Cinders! It shows how long it's been dragging on. In the meantime, I suggest that the mysterious D markings indicate a bayonet worn by the famous Dagenham Girl Pipers, a famous pipe band during their band tour of Tripoli.
Or quite Possibly, the Daredevils from the Women's Auxillury Balloon Corps. When they were based at Camber Sands Holiday Camp!......................:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Looks like we have two of those ladies that believe they are the font of all knowledge - not, making comments that demonstrate just how puerile they actually are.
Its just like this ~ I have a Mark III it has wood on it with markings and there are stampings on the metal can you tell me what I have pics will follow next century!
My words of wisdom you should do a bit of a background check on what people have contributed to this site and to the milsurps collectors in general, I feel PL more than qualifies to comment anyway he sees fit, probably forgotten more than I will ever know.
Enjoy the site it is a grand place just beware who's toes you tread on as I found out really early on the fonts of knowledge close up to you and all that knowledge from field experience will be out of your reach. And that trespass I did 6 years ago and they are just tolerating me now........:madsmile:
puerile ~ Synonyms adolescent, babyish, immature, infantile, jejune, juvenile, kiddish, childish
Related Words boyish, brattish, bratty, girlie (or girly), girlish; childlike, innocent, naive (or naïve), simple, simplistic, unsophisticated
That was a bit harsh Smithy. I learned all I know about straight talking while with the Australian Army as a RAEME Armourer between 1967 and late 1969 Smithy. It hasn't done me any harm since. But to be absolutely fair, my answers thus far have been as equally informative as yours in as much as they didn't answer the question. Mind you, nobody has so far and they won't until we see a picture. And then I will throw in a REALLY low baller.....
I agree that a picture will answer everything. Peter, just don't know why comments regarding women band members need to be mentioned and others take up challenge by adding to it. I don't know Steve in UK but feel for him and that his thread ends up in ridicule (that's the way it appears to me anyway). Steve (Flying10uk) did PM me asking if he could forward photo by email and I have said yes and have now offered to upload to the thread if he is unable to do so. Whether he will now I don't know but these bayonets do exist in collections around Australia in significant numbers just don't know of any sand colour ones. Here in Oz sand coloured No4's are very few and far between.
Apologies for jumping out of my tree, I think I need to lighten up a little. :o
I'm not quite sure that a picture will answer this given some thought, unless it is backed up with something else. The definitive answer here is this. If No4 bayonets were issued to the Australian home Army through the official Ordnance system* then in the Ordnance Corps VAAOS catalogue there WILL be a part number for such as sure as god made little green apples! How would the equipment be issued, stored, maintained, controlled etc etc if it weren't accounted for, albeit initially. Even if it were a terse, cover-all description such as:
BAYONET, No4, all marks, with scabbard, UK pattern for No4 rifle. VAAOS Sect B1. Part No AB/CD-1234 (or whatever).
That's how the system works! No Aust VAAOS number or provisional number and I say NOT Australian issue. Our first 81mm mortars, purchased from UK/Canada had Australian Ordnance issued provisional part numbers so that we could indent for spares (that's how we discovered the UK made metallastic elevating bushes were useless in the wet heat).
That's just my opinion based NOT on owning or collecting a No4 bayonet (or indeed ANY bayonet), but knowing how the Ordnance system in relation to small-arms works
(* Ignore pooled Ordnance resources in places like Malaya, Borneo, Korea etc as they were issued under a centralised command system)
Thread closed ... :rolleyes:
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