No 5 Carbine project- Input welcome and appreciated

I made a fairly spontaneous purchase recently of a No 5 carbine that's in need of some work. The price was right, so I figured what the heck.

I haven't dove into it too far just yet. The forestock is missing a small piece at the rear, next to the receiver. The buttstock is loose as a goose, though I haven't gotten far enough to tell if it's a loose screw or if it's worn where it goes into the wrist (I think the latter). I'm also going to have to find a handguard and magazine.

I can't make out much for markings just yet. I need to disassemble and give it a good cleaning. Poor things been used and abused, it appears. There's some minor pitting on it, though I won't know how bad until I get the wood off. What I can see at the woodline isn't major, but is enough to shake my head at the past owners' lack of maintenance.

So, I'd like to get some input and advice from guys that know a bit more than I.

The finish seems to be some kind of lacquer or something. From what I have always understood, Enfields typically are an oil-finish (dipped in hot Linseed oil). Not a big deal if that's what is appropriate, I've done some work on a couple other Enfields in the collection and used BLO with success on them. Is that the route to take to keep it in more of an original finish when I restore?

With the lack of handguards, I'm looking at getting a No 4 handguard and doing the work to replace what's missing. I've found a couple without the grooves and I have the ability to groove it for the bands. My biggest concern there would be differing woods. However, I don't see a way of avoiding that without finding a complete stock set, which is like finding a Leprechaun riding a Unicorn.

I'm also likely going to have to replace some screws and other parts as I go along, as someone's not done it any favors. But that's the fun of restorations, i guess.

Any input and advice is more than welcome!

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rbine_13-1.jpg

First order of buisness ditch the AK sling. Looks like a fun project. Lots of No 5 parts on ebay sprigfield sporters etc..

Pull it apart and let's see...then you'll know where you are.

What browingautorifle said. First step to any restoration is to strip it and see what you have. It doesn't matter if it is a car or a rifle, without getting to the bare bones you can't plan for the end result.

You've GOT to strip it first. But looking from here, that fore-end is totally finished too. Then get a pro to finish the body and barrel assemblies plus the other metalwork by bead blasting, phosphating, painting properly and then baking hard.

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Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY

First order of buisness ditch the AK sling. Looks like a fun project. Lots of No 5 parts on ebay sprigfield sporters etc..

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The sling is long gone. I've been watching SS as well as some other sites and have located a lot of the parts. The hangup is that handguard. Like I say, I'm going to be looking at making one out of a No 4 I found that has no grooves.

Maybe I'm using the wrong term with "restoration", as I'm not wanting to completely take it down to bare metal. I like the used look on my milsurps. What I'm more after is making sure I have it looking correct with correct parts with the right finish. If BLO is the proper finish, then that's what I want to go with. If some kind of other finish is more appropriate for the No 5, then I want to try to replicate it.

A bit of a situation where I know it's never going to be completely original, but I want it as close as I can make it without doing something I shouldn't to maintain some level of accuracy.

Strip the wood down with Circa 1856 wood stripper and then use a 50/50 mix of BLO and turpentine for the first few coats along with light use of some brass wool. Raw linseed is the correct product to use for a finish, but I like to use the 50/50 for penetration and the brass wool will not create black spots if your stock sees a bit of moisture in the future.

If your rifle has not been Suncorited I have had good results with Birchwood Casey cream blueing to restore worn areas on the metal.

If you have a scrap sporter forearm you could salvage the area that is damaged and glue in a patch and peg with dowels. Just be sure to use acetone to rid the wood of oils in the area you intend to glue. To tighten up a loose butt stock some brown paper in glue and wrap the butt where it fits in the socket and allow it to dry. If you add a little to much file it down or not enough add another wrap or two.

Regarding woodwork, when we were refurbishing hundreds of them in the late 60's, some of the woodwork we were supplied with from Ordnance was visibly converted No4 stuff. Butts and fore-ends definately were so I would guess that so were rear handguards. Forget all about whether you have grooved or plain handguards. It was all the same to Armourers - and I might be wrong, but I don't ever remember grooved No5 handguards!.

I see the point about appreciating the worn look, but are you going to have that 'worn out look' with your new woodwork and screws and bands and magazine? Nope..... Just as easy to do it fully. Just my thoughts. Like fixing your old MGB really. Don't have to win prizes but it's got to look half decent. Annanuvverfing.......... your old No5 is a grand old lady now. She deserves better

Here are some more shots of the metal as I start disassembling. I can only make out one small marking, the rest appear to be worn completely off.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cyydrlqw-1.jpg

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That's EXACTLY how 90% of them were when we took the woodwork off. Quite deeply pitted and full of rust. But once they'd been through the main workshop/Armourers system they came out like new. All the steel that was hidden by the wood was lathered in a special grease to keep the monsoons and everything else out!

The grand old lady deserves the full treatment

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

That's EXACTLY how 90% of them were when we took the woodwork off. Quite deeply pitted and full of rust. But once they'd been through the main workshop/Armourers system they came out like new. All the steel that was hidden by the wood was lathered in a special grease to keep the monsoons and everything else out!

The grand old lady deserves the full treatment

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Ugh, I wish I had the funds for a full treatment! That's going to be part of my hurdle. I can take my time and get the wood and small parts to get it operating, but a complete refinish I would imagine would get a bit pricey for me.

The full treatment doesn't need to cost an arm and a leg, first thing you need to do is get the metal work in some kind of order, I'm a firm believer in the electrolysis method of getting a good proportion of rust off, simple, cheap and very affective.

With this you need a plastic container, for a barrelled action you could use guttering with two end caps, a 12 volt battery charger, a piece of scrap metal and some washing powder......
As for bead blasting if you do not have access to a compressor etc then look around for someone who does blasting or wheel finishing, parkerizing is quite straight forward and your in the right part of the world to get some of the Brownells solution.

The paint is probably the hardest thing to come by over there (Suncorite 259) as for woodwork, still a lot of No4 NOS woodwork to hand, I've plenty of hand guards if you need one.

OK, you've got me intrigued. I had essentially wrote of the "full treatment" due to cost. So, let me ask some questions.

How does one fix/repair the pitting? Or do you?

What is the appropriate coating? As mentioned, the Suncorite isn't something I'm likely going to be able to find. I'm not sure what Peter is talking about with the phosphate coating or if it can be done around here. There are some guys that do Cerakote that I might be able to get to do the oven work, but I'm not sure what other options I might have in that regard. Bead blasting I'm not sure about. I have access to a blaster and could use walnut media, but not sure if I've got connections to do bead without having to pay or not. I'd also have to look at cost of the materials

The metal is my big concern, I can go from there as far as what to do with the wood I think. I can strip and steam out the dents, then replace the part that's been chipped off. I know raw linseed oil in a heated tank is original from some past readings of Peter's, but BLO has been my go-to substitute.

Somehow I knew this would turn into more than some work on the wood. LOL

Before we had facility we rented space at a stone work that carved headstone...their blasting cabinet was monumental... :madsmile:

Don't use walnut, use glass beads. Pits CAN be filled in with wire feed weld, but I'd look long and hard at it before deciding to do it.

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Originally Posted by Catch22

OK, you've got me intrigued. I had essentially wrote of the "full treatment" due to cost. So, let me ask some questions.

How does one fix/repair the pitting? Or do you?

What is the appropriate coating? As mentioned, the Suncorite isn't something I'm likely going to be able to find. I'm not sure what Peter is talking about with the phosphate coating or if it can be done around here. There are some guys that do Cerakote that I might be able to get to do the oven work, but I'm not sure what other options I might have in that regard. Bead blasting I'm not sure about. I have access to a blaster and could use walnut media, but not sure if I've got connections to do bead without having to pay or not. I'd also have to look at cost of the materials

The metal is my big concern, I can go from there as far as what to do with the wood I think. I can strip and steam out the dents, then replace the part that's been chipped off. I know raw linseed oil in a heated tank is original from some past readings of Peter's, but BLO has been my go-to substitute.

Somehow I knew this would turn into more than some work on the wood. LOL

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1) The pitting is there for good, its just a way of cleaning it up and stopping further corrosion.

2) bead blasting you will need a hard medium, aluminium oxide or fine sand

3) Electrolysis is a cheap way to remove surface rust etc you will be impressed with the results. just saves some time in the blasting cabinet.

4) Phosphate same as parkerizing.....

5) Paint, I don't know what you have over there but others may know of something similar,

6) Raw linseed and BLO, one dries quicker than the other (BLO) it has additives to speed up the drying time, old BLO was basically boiled by hot air.


Some links to show the electrolysis effects on rust etc,

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=54108

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=50556

Phone Brian at BDL in SC, (he's on this site) ask him to look at the photos and then ask him to give you a quote for bead blasting the steelwork, phosphating and painting. You fully strip it and carefully assemble it afterwards. It's easy!

The rust removal is with the blaster. The future rust preventer is the phosphate treatment and the protection is the paint. Assuming that you aren't going to use the rifle in the monsoons or fight in the mangrove swamps of Johore in Malaya, a good quality oven bake exhaust paint will probably do. The old lady deserves better than a cat lick I say!

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Phone Brian at BDL in SC, (he's on this site) ask him to look at the photos and then ask him to give you a quote for bead blasting the steelwork, phosphating and painting. You fully strip it and carefully assemble it afterwards. It's easy!

The rust removal is with the blaster. The future rust preventer is the phosphate treatment and the protection is the paint. Assuming that you aren't going to use the rifle in the monsoons or fight in the mangrove swamps of Johore in Malaya, a good quality oven bake exhaust paint will probably do. The old lady deserves better than a cat lick I say!

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I appreciate the info and got with Brian a little bit ago. Looks like I'm going to have to do some saving to pull off the full treatment on it. I'm sure it'd be well worth it, just outside the budget limits at the moment.

I'm going to do some debating on where to go for now. I hate to do too much getting it shootable without doing something to finish and protect it. Maybe at least get a start on it and try the electrolysis to get the rust stopped and keep it oiled until I get the funds up.

It looks like the handguard retaining ring is missing. The only way to get one onto the barrel intact is to remove the front sight base which may or may not involve a some type of press and a bit of profanity. I've had the pleasure of doing this twice and if I had to do it again I think I'd just snip the bottom of the ring and weld or braze it back together once it was coaxed over the barrel.

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Originally Posted by Steve H. in N.Y.

It looks like the handguard retaining ring is missing. The only way to get one onto the barrel intact is to remove the front sight base which may or may not involve a some type of press and a bit of profanity. I've had the pleasure of doing this twice and if I had to do it again I think I'd just snip the bottom of the ring and weld or braze it back together once it was coaxed over the barrel.

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You're correct, it is missing. Not looking forward to that now. LOL May try your brazing trick.

Cutting and brazing the new handguard ring is perfectly acceptable. In fact, the last thing you want to do is remove the flash hider.

Snip and braze is just what we used to do on an everyday basis. If the barrel was rusty then you could be sure that the bottom of the ring had gone too. But word of advice here first. DO NOT cut it with a hacksaw. Always snip across the new one with snips because this leaves the joined ring the same diameter when you braze the ends together

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Originally Posted by Catch22

I know raw linseed oil in a heated tank is original from some past readings of Peter's, but BLO has been my go-to substitute.

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Every Lee Enfield purist will chastise me for what I'm going to say here, but I will say it anyway: Do not use RLO -- it will be gummy, attract dirt, and oxide to a dark chocolate brown over several decades. RLO was used during war because it was plentiful and cheap. BLO is better -- it will function better, will dry better, and will take twice as long to turn chocolate brown.

As a restorer of old boats that have to bake in the hot Florida sun and withstand tropical rain conditions in the summer, I will state unequivocally that if you want the wood on your gun to receive the best treatment, you will not use BLO but instead use pure Tung Oil -- it's is a better wood preservative, a better fungicide, doesn't oxidize (thus displaying the grain better) and a more durable, waterproof finish. Tung Oil was used on M1s whenever it was available because it is better, but more expensive. The very best marine varnishes use Tung Oil as their base. The cheap (low quality, poor performing) marine varnishes use Linseed Oil as their base.

This summer I am going to do an experiment -- put a piece of wood out in the hot sun and tropical rain -- one half covered with BLO and the other half covered with Tung Oil. When the experiment is over, you can see the results for yourself (maybe you'll try it for yourself). Then decide what you want to do with your expensive cherished gun. Just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Phone Brian at BDL in SC, (he's on this site) ask him to look at the photos and then ask him to give you a quote for bead blasting the steelwork, phosphating and painting. You fully strip it and carefully assemble it afterwards. It's easy!

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Brian is the best. If you want to bring your gun back to the highest quality standards, you can't go wrong. He restored my Long Branch sniper -- it is as good as new -- the best Lee Enfield in my collection.

Electro penciled or stamped markings generally don't just wear off.
I've seen markings removed during a refurb but they are generally replaced.
I do see a broad arrow but no other markings at all, seems strange.
There should be markings identifying it as being made by Fazakerley or BSA the only makers of No5's.
Every part of my 1945 Fazakerley has a marking or number or both on it.
I'm just hoping you didn't end up with one of those Khyber Pass knockoffs that are dangerous to shoot.
You really need to go over that rifle very very carefully with a magnifying glass to try and find any hidden markings before you put money into it.
Look for all the genuine No5 traits, fluted chamber, hollowed bolt handle, removed action lug on the right side behind chamber,
trigger guard figure 8 shaped by the front screw, hollowed out sear ect. None of your pics show any of any of these id factors. - Bill

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Originally Posted by oldfoneguy

Electro penciled or stamped markings generally don't just wear off.
I've seen markings removed during a refurb but they are generally replaced.
I do see a broad arrow but no other markings at all, seems strange.
There should be markings identifying it as being made by Fazakerley or BSA the only makers of No5's.
Every part of my 1945 Fazakerley has a marking or number or both on it.
I'm just hoping you didn't end up with one of those Khyber Pass knockoffs that are dangerous to shoot.
You really need to go over that rifle very very carefully with a magnifying glass to try and find any hidden markings before you put money into it.
Look for all the genuine No5 traits, fluted chamber, hollowed bolt handle, removed action lug on the right side behind chamber,
trigger guard figure 8 shaped by the front screw, hollowed out sear ect. None of your pics show any of any of these id factors. - Bill

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---------- Post added at 01:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:25 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Seaspriter

Every Lee Enfield purist will chastise me for what I'm going to say here, but I will say it anyway: Do not use RLO -- it will be gummy, attract dirt, and oxide to a dark chocolate brown over several decades. RLO was used during war because it was plentiful and cheap. BLO is better -- it will function better, will dry better, and will take twice as long to turn chocolate brown.

As a restorer of old boats that have to bake in the hot Florida sun and withstand tropical rain conditions in the summer, I will state unequivocally that if you want the wood on your gun to receive the best treatment, you will not use BLO but instead use pure Tung Oil -- it's is a better wood preservative, a better fungicide, doesn't oxidize (thus displaying the grain better) and a more durable, waterproof finish. Tung Oil was used on M1s whenever it was available because it is better, but more expensive. The very best marine varnishes use Tung Oil as their base. The cheap (low quality, poor performing) marine varnishes use Linseed Oil as their base.

This summer I am going to do an experiment -- put a piece of wood out in the hot sun and tropical rain -- one half covered with BLO and the other half covered with Tung Oil. When the experiment is over, you can see the results for yourself (maybe you'll try it for yourself). Then decide what you want to do with your expensive cherished gun. Just my opinion.


Brian is the best. If you want to bring your gun back to the highest quality standards, you can't go wrong. He restored my Long Branch sniper -- it is as good as new -- the best Lee Enfield in my collection.

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I actually have some Tung Oil and considered it. Or even putting a few coats on top of the BLO. I've got an old Swiss 1889 sporter I need to dress up I've considered it using on as a test. I've used the Tung on a couple 22's and it flat made the grain pop.

Hear what you're saying oldfone (thread 23) but Fazakerley markings, done with what we called 'the scratchy pen' (or electric pencil mounted in a pantograph frame) were notorious for wearing off. Once in the bead blasting booth, they'd be off in seconds. We didn't bother ourselves with replacing manufacturing or designation detail. But we always replaced missing or obliterated numbers.

Regarding wood treatment. We knew all about extreme zapping heat, monsoon rains for most of the year, salt water, mangrove silt and beating sunshine in Malaya as it affected our rifles and machine guns so am at a loss to understand why we didn't use tung oil or any of the other super-dooper concoctions. All our woodwork was dunked in a constant warm-to-touch linseed oil bath for the day and left to drip dry. And that is STILL the specified treatment on our wood today - as I have just confirmed in a phone call!

Just seen the recent photos. That's no different to the hundreds of No4,s 5's, L1A1's and shotguns, Brens and SMG's that used to go through the Base workshop system every week

Just saw the updated pics, yea it looks real enough to me.
Even through the rust and the dirt you can plainly see it doesn't have any of the crude hallmarks of a Khyber Pass receiver.
It doesn't look like cast flash has been slightly filed and then it was painted with a roller!
She looks like the real deal and I'll bow to Peter's expertise, but I still wonder why no numbers were replaced. - Bill

I'd say no numbers have been replaced since it hasn't been through the FTR process.

I realize I'm reviving a 5 year old thread, but I'm doing so with good reason.

Shortly after starting this thread, we sold our place and moved. As a result, this project got put off. This project has been wrapped in an oily old t-shirt and only brought out here and there to make sure it wasn't rusting or the like.

I got to getting into tearing everything down to start working on it and bringing it back to life. As a result, the screw that goes through the rear of the trigger guard holding it to the bottom of the wrist had to be drilled out. Soaking for several weeks, heat, and other methods didn't get it loose and the chewed up screw head (like that when I got it, you can see in the pics) broke half of it off. Sucker was flat siezed up and took some work.

I have a small ring of old screw still in the threaded side of the wrist I'm working on figuring out how to get out without damaging the threads. However, what I can see of the threads I'm half afraid someone before me may have boogered them up a bit.

As such, I'm working my head around the next steps and wondering if I'm going to have to chase the threads when I get the ring of what's left out. Trying to make sure I've got the right threads, though. From what I'm finding, it is a British 4BA thread? So I'd be looking for a 4BA tap, if that's the case.

You already have this going in another thread...right? Why doubt the info you already got here? Yes, British threads...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

You already have this going in another thread...right? Why doubt the info you already got here? Yes, British threads...

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You mean the post in the gunsmithing forum?

Unless I've missed one, the only response I got to that question was to try in the Enfield forum. I hadn't seen a reply that had an answer.

Apologies if I duplicated.

Cinders answered...and you just answered him...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Cinders answered...and you just answered him...

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Yeah, after you commented I went and looked. Sure enough, I hadn't seen his reply. Yours was the last one I had seen. Notifications had only sent me yours I guess, so I hadn't checked that forum.

Appreciate you bringing it to my attention, though!