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While digging out my Indian L1A3s I ran across this piece and thought I'd post a few photos. The hilt has a very bright bluing. It got washed out in the photos, but it is fully blued and has a much better finish than the later manufactured pieces.
Attachment 73097
Attachment 73098
Attachment 73099
Ricasso markings indicate Wilkinson Sword company. The grips should be removed & the tang underneath checked. For the SINGLE hole in it for the grip scales screw.
Anymore holes the in the tang other than the one for the screw shank. & it is a later more common model, with repro grips. Those grips seem to my mind at least. In far too good a
Condition, for a Bayonet that has been in Service. I could be wrong of course, not having the facility to actually handle the bayonet personally.
BUT, there MAY be some markings stamped inside either grip scale. In which case, you MAY well have an original, that escaped the later modification process. Of drilling the tang & fitting the
More efficient Two screw Grip Scaled variants! ;)
The Two screw version/ mod was introduced. Because if the bayonet received a heavy blow to either grip. They usually split/ fractured & the complete scale fell away! Two screws gave a much better chance. Of having a 'Blade' that was still 'useful' for hand to hand fighting!......Well, that's the Theory behind it anyway! :cheers:
Much better general condition to the ones we used to see. We were still getting single screw hole grips coming through the Ordnance system in the 60's. It was a bit of a menace too because you'd get two and one screw grips that wouldn't match! The true problem with the one screw grips was that if you used the bayonet as a knife (and if it looks like a knife, guess what the crunchies will use it as?) the grips would twist/rotate about the screw and split along the top and bottom edges.
While the pattern of the grips changed, the part number didn't so far as we could make out!
I recall when you could still find a single screw model for sale...at least occasionally.
I've seen two for sale in the past 40 years. I bought them both :)Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Mine is near mint but I doubt I would get a decent return on what it cost me if it went up for sale.
I do not believe your statement is correct. The original No5 bayonets did not have a single hole in the tang. What is the source for your information?Quote:
Originally Posted by tankhunter
I thought the regular ones were unicorns. Very inreresting.
According to another discussion, the early 1 screw bayonet should have five holes in the tang. The later bayonets should have four. All single screw bayonets should be Wilkinson production.
Well, Wether you believe Me or not is your prerogative Porterkids. Having had a 'Modest' amount of time over the years, of inspecting/repairing/manufacturing/Doing Museum Restoration. Buying/Selling/Trading in small arms & their appurtences. I can tell you as a FACT. That four early No:5 Bayonets that I stripped & overhauled way back when. in each case, Every single one of them had the single hole in the tang. No, I do not have photographic evidence of this. Because, when you are doing the job of an Armourer, & have inspected/Repaired/Modified/Restrored many Thousands of them over the course of MANY Years. You do this as a course of your job, & as is usually the case. Time is against you, so stopping to pop home & get a camera. Is not the first thing on your mind!......Remember, this WAS quite a few years ago! And also, & Peter will attest to this. When executing 'The Job' on a daily basis, doing a LOT of weapons each Day. You don't really stop & scrutinise things like manufactures markings Etc. Because in General, you are performing your Tasks to Support the Unit/Workshop that you are attached to at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by porterkids
You have to remember, that we were performing our trade as Craftsmen. NOT Collectors!... I am sure Peter like myself. Has encountered Armourers who do the job per say. But have little or no interest in collecting anything connected with the Trade.
So to answer your post that 'You do not Believe my Statement is correct'. I can only tell you what I have experienced hands on so to speak. & make my Own statement, that I am NOT a Liar!.. No one is perfect, & I am only too willing to accede to anything I may be wrong on. But in this instance, what I have posted in the bayonet Section is factual. :cheers:
That would make sense. The other holes believe it or not. Were for the purposes of lightening the bayonet! This was also the case on SOME No:4 Rifles with the 'Ball' of the bolt handle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
it had a hole drilled in it, for the same reason. The No:5 Rifle went further, & had flutes machined under the knox form of the barrel. & machined off other areas of the receiver.
This may seem like a bit of a waste of time. BUT, if you did a bit of 'lightning' here & there on a weapon. The thinking behind this was, that it all added up, to save the load carried by the 'user'. That fact that this was negated by making him carry more ammo/ Grenades. Bandaliers (Incorrect spelling!) & a couple mags for the section LMG. & perhaps the odd 2" Mortar Bomb thrown in. made no sense to us when 'In the Field'!.......:madsmile:
However, of the first four single hole Tanged No:5 bayonets I encountered many years ago. They ALL had only one hole in their respective tangs. I wonder if this was a manufacturers concession. Or VERY early production variants? Other than that, I cannot say for a certainty. :confused:
Well said TH and who is to say the people whom wrote the books for identifying the bayonets got it 110% correct, I mean should I write to Patrick Agte and say that the book he wrote on Michael Wittmann and the Commanders of the Leibstandarte is incorrect because some one else wrote something different on the same Tiger Tank pic in another book!
Me I am a practical person and take information supplied from those that have had the hands on experience as pretty much the correct info, wise words you may want to reflect on how you stomp on people in this forum or web page for that matter......
---------- Post added at 03:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:07 PM ----------
Think of the 0000's of bayonets with all the swarf from the drilling gathered up and you can produce I do not know maybe 3 bayonets from every 400 made just a guess as an example a 2 pronged attack 1) saves weight for the end user the PBI 2) Stops wastage and is frugal
I was under the impression the real ones only had one hole, maybe I shall take mine apart, but it is too nice to touch. I've seen this argument before BCB says 5 holes but The Bayonet book implies only a single screw hole for the early ones (which maybe where many of us got the idea) the prototype seems to have lots of holes, while the moded 07 trial had 4 screw holes. When I started collection I was told that you could tell the fakes as they had the extra hole for the single screw added, which seems to tally with tank hunters comments. looks like I may have to ge the screw driver out, shame I don't have access to the Xray equipment I used to be able to "borrow"
I'll have to dig mine out and check. I don't have a one screw but am now curious as to how many holes they have. I have taken the one apart but not the second and it had more than two if I remember correctly. I was also under the belief that the one screw bayonets only had one hole which is how you told the fakes from the real ones. I checked two of my bayonet books last night and they didn't mention how many holes.
I don't want to inflame the situation but having seen about a zillion, there definately are 1 screw hole bayonets out there. I know this because unless you had BOTH grip sides of the one hole bayonet, the bayonet was beyond repair! As I mention several times, we used to get both types - which helped no-one and hindered plenty! Indeed, we even had some 'NO-hole' grips supplied - which I presume was an accident by the quality control inspectors at Ordnance.
The No5 bayonet was lightened by slimming down the steel grip part because if it was manufactured like a No1 bayonet (with grips screwed onto full width steel grip) the light barrelled rifle was so inaccurate as to be useless. So the bayonet had to be lightened to suit. Not a lot of weight was lost and still not perfect but reasonably acceptable.
What I DO know is that a standard UK Military issue No5 bayonet will not accept L1A1 steel grips.
Carl, the one thing I have worked with all through my Military Career at trade. Is to take each task with an Open mind. Sure the 'Rule Book'/ EMER/AESP/Misc Instruction/Modification Etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by old-smithy
May well say 'Do this or that'. Or 'They were manufactured with/like......' I say an Open mind, because sooner or later, you can bet your Bottom Dollar. an item WILL come along one day.
To Disprove what 'The Bible' on that equipment/ item says!
Again, in a lot of instances. Privately researched books written primamrily by Civilians, do have errors or incorrect information. ALL Books/Published information SHOULD be viewed as a GUIDE. & that is absolutely the right approach. I reiterate: 'Something' will come along, sooner or later to disprove the so-called rule'!.......
Personally, Myself & Indeed Peter & other Expirienced Fellow Forum Members. Contribute on here, from our personal hands on experience & gain knowledge. in the Hope of helping/assisting/guiding. Fellow enthusiasts. & also hope that we might just prevent a nasty accident or attempt at a certain repair Etc. From happening, & prevent the possible destruction/damage of a beloved item of History. That We all enjoy/ admire in our respective collecting/ field of interest.
I have mentioned before, that some kind souls call Me an Expert in my chosen Profession. I chose NOT to use that term. I classify myself an very knowledgeable across the board in my Trade & associated expiriences. I have been Humbled at times, by many fellow enthusiasts & collectors due to sharing & helping in my area of 'Expirience'. With their thanks & good wishes for any practical & verbal contributions to their 'difficulties'.
I am NOT a 'Font of all knowledge' & do not profess to be. Because their is ALWAYS someone, who knows a little more than you do. & vice versa!
However, like other Friends & Collegues here on the Forum. If we can enrich & assist a Fellow Collector/Enthusiast though this medium. Drawing on Truthful hands on Expiriences that have occurred during my Life. Than I am happy to help, until informed otherwise!.............:cheers: