Will MP40 or Vigneron magazines work in a Lanchester?
The reason I ask is here Lanchester C and R transferable machine gun : Machine Guns at GunBroker.com
I can’t tell if they MP40 or Vigneron magazines.
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Will MP40 or Vigneron magazines work in a Lanchester?
The reason I ask is here Lanchester C and R transferable machine gun : Machine Guns at GunBroker.com
I can’t tell if they MP40 or Vigneron magazines.
I wouldn't have thought so...
I have never tried it personaly. But as the Sten was designed to accept MP.40 mags, & I have used Vig Mags in MP.40s. I would imagine that because the interface is similar.
It is entirely possible. But you would indeed have to try it to confirm this. I don't have a Lanchester now in the collection, so am unable to confirm this.
As a slight aside, the Stens follow on. The Magnificent Sterling L2A3, CAN use Sten Mags as well. BUT, without a special adaptor, the Sterling mags will NOT fit directly into a Sten!..
This was a cunning built in design by Sterling when Marketing these SMGs. As if you had an Army that used the Sten, you would have to replace the entire 'Fleet' to use the VERY reliable Sterling Magazines! That meant, you could NOT get away with the cheaper expedient of purchasing just Magazines. To upgrade the reliability factor of your Sten 'Fleet'!
I believe there is a book Titled 'The guns of Dagenham' by a Certain Author named Peter Laidler, also confirming this!......................................;)
Just a very slight correction if I might be so bold and respectful Tankie. The Sten was designed to take LANCHESTER magazines. If Turpin had had his way, he'd have designed something else - or better. But Lanchester mags were already in production. The length was shortened simply so that the 'new' Sten magazine were slightly re-designed/shortened to fit into the new '37 pattern pouches to suit Army requirements.
MP40 mags will fit into a Sten due to the loose tolerances of the mag housing but it's a bit more hit and miss when it comes to MP40 mags in a Lanchester because the mag housing is machined to a drawing (as opposed to fabricated/bent to suit a drawing!). We'd take a handfull of magazines to the range and get caught out with MP40 magazines occasionally that wouldn't operate successfully in Stens.
Small side note, the Sten mags fit and functioned in the Canadian SMG 9mm C1, I know because I tried it. Maybe our guns had a different tolerance as our mags were just stamped followers and all...but I used four Sten mags all through one night in my SMG. Not really a good idea because of the need for a loader.
Sten mags will fit in our Sterlings BUT they push in too far as Tankie says and hold the bolt back. Sterling/C1 mags will interchange and this was acknowledged in BAOR/Germany when they'd occasionally find them being mixed up and the mag catches were the same.
I know there are differences between SMG C1 and say, (L2A3) or so...but I'd need to sit with a dial caliper to sort out what was what. Ours had more stamping...and our bolt was one piece...so forth and so on. Peter, Tankie...do you ever remember using Canadian mags in UK guns or vice versa? Maybe Vincent has some hanging around...?
Jim, I have to admit. I have never used a C1 Mag in a Sterling L2A3, so cannot comment.
I THINK I have at least one Canadian C1 Mag in the Collection. But as my 'storage Facility'.
Is full from floor to ceiling, with only a 2.6" gap down the centre. locating pretty much anything these days. Is a Major 'Exploration' in itself!.....:ugh:
Just to add to the Mix. Whilst in THEORY, that certain models & various manufacturers of Magazine. Are actually interchangeable in certain Weapons in the SMG Class of Firearm.
In practice, it will be frustratingly discovered. That some Mags of identical pattern, WILL function. And some will not. This is due to manufacturing tollerances in the external measurements of the magazine & also the internal dimentions of the Mag housing. If you have for example, a Mag at Maximum Tollerance. & also a mag housing at the same allowance. It may be either a very tight fit. Or will not enter the housing fully at all without FORCE.
Which is something you should never have to do, when firing any weapon!
this is ONE of the reasons that differing classes of Weapon. May be encountered with matching serial numbered magazines to an individual weapon. so they are a known & tested magazine to that particular weapon.
The German Luger is the first example of a handgun that springs to mind.. A similar situation exists with bayonets as well........
I tested a C1 SMG magazine in a Mk4 Sterling a couple of years ago. It functioned perfectly. The breech block and trigger en bloc also worked.
FAMAE PAF magazines and trigger en bloc work in the Mk4 also. The breech block needed a little work. The cocking handle hole is not in the same location and had to be moved to work in the Mk4 and Mk5.
The FAMAE PAF breech block was made with the same off center internal lightening cut Mk5 breech blocks have. It uses a single return spring with a higher rate than the Mk4 big spring, so the cyclic rate is a little higher.
Yes, I had occasion to use a C1 breech block, trigger mech and mags in a L2A3 myself...I suspect the UK mags and breech block will work in C1. Just can't imagine why the Sten mags didn't fit the Sterling...Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent
Sten mags do fit in the Sterling, but Sterling mags don’t work in the Sten.
**********
Here’s a chap with a Vig or MP40 mag in a Mk5 Sten.
Sten mk. 5 deactivated weapon from The Birmingham Armoury - YouTube
Sten mags do sort of fit into a Sterling. It's just that the mag catch in the Sterling is positioned differently so that when the Sten mag is secured, it intrudes into the bolt-way. If you actually hold the Sten mag in the correct position, it'll work........... until it jambs-up or misfeeds.
The reason why a single stack feed position mag works in a a two stack feed Sterling is that the ingenious design of the front face of the Sterling mag has a deflector built into the front top and bottom of the magazine. Have a look at one when you have a chance. These top and bottom deflectors tip or direct the round up (or down) directly into the mouth of the chamber. Because the face of the magazine is sooooooo close to the opening of the chamber, there is no 'twilight zone' (as we Armourers call it) where the round is not under positive control. The round is a) In the magazine or b) under the control of the magazine but heading forwards, tipping up or down, c) nose in the chamber or d) nose positively in the chamber, cannot go anywhere else or do anything else (like stub onto the barrel face) and free of control from the magazine.
If you thought Patchetts SMG was good, his magazines were absolutely superb.
Sorry to go off at a tangent. But have a look at those punched out deflectors when you see a magazine next time. The ADE at Marribyong (? spelling.....) and Lithgow appreciated Patchetts design too. Incidentally, the last cost price for a Sterling SMG magazine in 1988 was £3.50 with a selling price of £11.
That's right...Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent
Just can't imagine why the Sten mags didn't fit the Sterling...
Jim, I explained why in my Earlier post Buddy. ;)
without a special adaptor, the Sterling mags will NOT fit directly into a Sten!..
This was a cunning built in design by Sterling when Marketing these SMGs. As if you had an Army that used the Sten, you would have to replace the entire 'Fleet' to use the VERY reliable Sterling Magazines! That meant, you could NOT get away with the cheaper expedient of purchasing just Magazines. To upgrade the reliability factor of your Sten 'Fleet'!
Yes, I understand that...what I sort of eluded to was that they did fit the SMG C1 9mm...as I recall. Unless I'm just remembering it wrong. Anyway it makes no matter...Quote:
Originally Posted by tankhunter
Magazines..... One old soldier who fought in Korea and Suez and one whom I respected greatly - even more so, because he knew the Army quartermaster paperwork system inside-out - told me that when he was an Infantry training instructor at Sutton Coldfield, one of the main Infantry Training Centres in the 60's he used teach recruits and the would-be training instructors who came through on courses these wise words. When you are issued with a Sten gun, make sure that you are able to select and test it then keep 10 magazines that you KNOW operate jamb-free in YOUR gun. Keep those magazines in your pouches and keep them clean. Then you'll have a SMG that's as good as anything other SMG.
The difference in the training regime between the Stens and the Sterlings that slowly replaced it was that generally speaking, all the Sterling magazines worked well in all of the Sterling guns.
Maybe DRP can tell us when the Infantry Barracks at Sutton Coldfield closed?
Sage advice there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
PL misspoke and reversed the facts, Sten mags work in sterlings, and you just have to Re grind a single feed sten bolt slightly wider to clear the wider sterling mags double feed lips.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Then you're home and free to use either mag...
Attachment 73446Attachment 73447Attachment 73444Attachment 73445
1. Sten Bolt with Sten Mag (reversed)
2. Sten Bolt with Sterling Mag (reversed)
3. Sten Bolt with Sterling Bolt
4. Sterling Bolt with Sten Mag (reversed)
The centre feed "ram" is the same width and depth in both bolts (I measured).
As I remember it, the:
Sten magazines have a narrow 'U' shaped opening at the rear to accommodate the narrower rounded feed horns of the breech block whereas the;
Sterling magazines have a slightly wider squared recess to accommodate the squared-off, wider and more efficient feed horns.
Surely, with the availability of Sten and Sterling magazines this is all academic. Just use the right magazines for the right gun...... Like using petrol in a petrol car and diesel in your old works diesel van
People would much rather use the superb Sterling magazine in their Sten guns if it was possible. Since they can’t, some have had their Stens converted to “Stenlings.” It’s basically just the registered part of the Sten body (tube) and everything else is replaced with Sterling parts.
It’s an interesting conversion because the Sten cocking slot cannot legally be narrowed to the size of the Sterling’s slot and the cocking handle can only be widened so much and still fit through the hole in the body.
To prevent the cocking handle from rotating in the wider slot, a hole is drilled through the detent for the fouling pin in the cocking handle block and a corresponding hole is drilled in the cocking handle. This allows the fouling pin to pass through the forward part of cocking handle block and into the new hole in the cocking handle to prevent it from rotating.
The new hole in the cocking handle block goes through all the way from front to back. That allows the fouling pin to be pushed back with a tool so the cocking handle can be removed.
Hello Vincent, Do I assume from the way you have worded your post on this Topic.
That the 'Stenlings' are Semi-Auto Only?.......
The 'Normal' Sterling or Sten is Selective Fire. & as I understand it, adaptors are available in the US to fit Sten Mag Housings. That will allow the use of Sterling Magazines to be used freely. Without any modifications to the Guns?
What you describe, seems an awful lot of work, (& Expense!) just to simply use a much more reliable magazine system. And if you have a removable adaptor, you do not alter the original build & indeed. The value of the Weapon.
We over here in GB have never seen a 'Stenling' SMG. would it be at all possible to show us some photos of an example at all? :thup:
Same thoughts here too Tankie!
Another problem interchanging the magazines is that the angle of presentation of the rounds in each gun is 8 degrees.
The STEN does this by the magazine being fixed in at 90 degrees but the feed lips (the problem......) presents the rounds at 8 degrees. Whereas the clever Mr Patchett in his
STERLING does this by presenting/fixing the MAGAZINE in at 8 degrees. That way the rounds are held in place by the magazine lips at 90 degrees, square-on to the magazine. This way, while they are square to the mag lips, the 8 degree angle of the mag housing makes the mechanics of it all simpler AND more reliable.
But I say, if you want a reliable Sten gun, just get 10 good magazines that work reliably in your gun and be done with the unnecessary complications. K.I.S.S.
Mike, I have to say I am both surprised and disappointed that you don't know about the rare Stenling (its not often you get caught out mate), the product of a classified SASC cross breeding program and issued along with the equally rare Dublin Police marked Lee Enfields... :):)
Pretty funny...:rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
No, Stenlings are select fire. It’s what we call a “tube gun.” That’s a machinegun build on a registered tube receiver.Quote:
Hello Vincent, Do I assume from the way you have worded your post on this Topic.
That the 'Stenlings' are Semi-Auto Only?.......
I have never seen an adaptor like that. I have seen magazine housings that allow Sterling magazines to be used on a Sten. I think the breech block was modified to work with it.Quote:
The 'Normal' Sterling or Sten is Selective Fire. & as I understand it, adaptors are available in the US to fit Sten Mag Housings. That will allow the use of Sterling Magazines to be used freely. Without any modifications to the Guns?
The conversion is a lot of work and it’s not cheap. But a Stenling sells for a lot more than a Sten.Quote:
What you describe, seems an awful lot of work, (& Expense!) just to simply use a much more reliable magazine system. And if you have a removable adaptor, you do not alter the original build & indeed. The value of the Weapon.
Sure. They look just like a Sterling Mk4 except for the cocking slot.Quote:
We over here in GB have never seen a 'Stenling' SMG. would it be at all possible to show us some photos of an example at all?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../2nl7eki-1.jpg
Attachment 73448Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent
Sten/Lanchester left, MP38/40 right
So, they'd be loose as a goose's butt...
https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....8&d=1465317281
Yes, it looks like the MP38/40 magazine would be loose. The MP38/40 magazine doesn’t the indentation at the back that the Sten magazine has. Other than that, they look pretty close.
I guess the indentation keeps ‘crunchies’ from putting the Sten follower/platform in backwards und das macht nichts fur die Deutschen.
That's about right, also in the low light conditions...it would slope the wrong way then. The Germans wouldn't do that, it wouldn't be proper...so it's not allowed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent
I am guessing the German mag has some kind of similar arrangement to keep the follower from being put in backwards or do their guns have feed lips and not require an angled follower?
I'm pretty sure they had a similar angle for the frame of the follower. Otherwise during a hurried or low light assembly, it could be reversed. Simple though, if your mag seems to be working, don't strip it. Only do so if it appears to be in danger of failure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent
You are quite correct BAR. They are looser, but they do work. The Sten was designed to also used captured MP.40 mags. If the user was 'In a Hurry'!......Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Not as reliable as a sten mag obviously due to the gap. But they do work, sort of! ;)
---------- Post added at 02:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:03 AM ----------
Is this you photo shopping again Johnny?..............;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
That’s exactly what I wanted to know. Thank you so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by tankhunter
MP38/40 magazines are ridiculously expensive here. I found a good deal on some Vigneron magazines and I am going to give them a try. Maybe weld a plate to the back to take up the slop. Will post some pictures when I get them.
I thought the photoshopped Stenling was funny.
The man who did the best job of the Stenling conversion called me yesterday. He said he will not do any more of them and there’s slim chance the BATFE will approve any more. That’s good news for the people who have them as the prices have shot up to over $10,000. Yep, that one expensive Sten…ling.
The best news is he had a great deal on a Thompson. :dancingbanana::dancingbanana::dancingbanana: :D
Me photo shopping, why the camera never lies Mike ... or it lies as much as a "vote stay" politician, it's one of the two! Give you a call tomorrow mate, high time we had a catch up.
I'm not quite happy with the assertion that the Sten was designed to take MP40 magazines Tankie. I realise that it's a very minor point, but it is recorded in Harold Turpins own personal notes, a copy of them all which is held at the Warminster SASC tech library, that the Sten was designed to take the 9mm magazines already in series production in the UK. This MUST mean Lanchester magazines already in production at Dagenham and NOT MP40. It might well be that the Lanchester was designed to take MP40 magazines but......... I had heard this old chestnut too but look as I might, could find no official reference to it. If you find MP40 mags that fit and function reliably in a Sten or vice verca then that's purely coincidental.
Turpin was unable to design new magazines within the time or with the £5 budget that Maj. Shepherd allowed him. Lanchester magazines it was.
I had intended to put this in the Myths and Mysteries section of the Sten book but could only find reference to the fact that his chamber design allowed captured continental 9mm ammunition to be used. A very minor point I appreciate........
I'd love to have another of those...Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent
As you state, the Lanchester was a "Britishized" MP28/2 and Lanchester and Sten mags are straight copies of (50 & 32rd mind you) MP28/2 magazines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
This story (usage of MP38/40 magazines) is in line with the incorrect idea of 7.62x51 Nato and 7.62x39 M.43 (and 5.56/5.45) interchangeability which is repeated by far too many soldiers and other minimally cognizant firearms users.
Pete, I agree, I have to admit to not reading/ seeing any 'material' OFFICIALY published on the topic of german Mag interchangability.
It's just that, I have personally used them in Stens. Talked to Vets who did. & read 'Somewhere' accounts of this happening, during the war.
I was therefore, under the impression that this was a small feature of the Stens original design.
But it would seem, like it was a 'Bonus' of the interface mag design?
Captured ammo was most Certainly used in Stens on occasions, as you know. & TBH, it would make perfect sense, for a Crunchie to pick up a full MP.40 mag. & Try one in His Sten!
if it fitted & fired alright. Then that would spread like wildfire, Yes?..:cheers:
I'm sure that in a particular given situation. The Mag exchange scenario may very well have saved a Crunchies Life!...:sos:
Regarding Vignaron Mags. I have encountered quite a difference in Tollerances with them! Some will fit in & fire, some will not. This is also a MUCH bigger problem with Vig Mags in an MP.40! I have in my own collection, an MP.40. That even an original MP.40 mag will not go right in the mag well!!
Another original mag will!......So for ALL in the SMG class of weapon. Tollerance has a BIG part to play!
trying & fitting a number of DIFFERENT Mags. Of Differeing Weapons, may well surprise you. As to what will fit, & what wont!.......Peter will concur with that one! ;)
It would be logical when designing a new machine pistol [MP 38] that it also uses existing [large stocks of?] MP 28 magazines instead of designing completely new ones ...
.......... exactly Dann! Like using existing magazines in the new Sten. Especially when your boss (Shepherd) only allowed you a month and £5 to go away, design and produce the SMG that you'd shown him as a paper draft the week before.
"I'm not quite happy with the assertion that the STEN was designed to take MP40 magazines "
Was not the Lanchester a "highest form of flattery" of the German MP-28, itself an "upgrade" of the old MP-18?
If this is the case, the Lanchester was "designed" to take a clone of the MP-28 magazine, not the MP-38, which came ten years later.
Furthermore, if the STEN were required to take magazines "already in production" that could only mean the Lanchester / MP-28 type.
Anyone have ALL of the various mags (and / or guns) close to hand?
So in that Context Pete, it would seem like the gun was designed around the mag. & not a mag to fit the gun!... usually, it's the other way around! :D I cant imagine that happening with something like the EM2. Have you seen the Mags for them? I wouldn't want to try to make one! :ugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
The fact that German Mp.40 Mags fitted & used in an 'Emergency', is purely coincidental then? But work they do, in examples I have tried & fired in the past. When at the time, Sten mags were not to hand.
Have I seen an EM 2 mags.......... Are you kidding Tankie? We had boxes of the various sorts and calibres in the cellar, some numbered to the trials papers and others numbered to rifles and others in the white and.......
As for the Sten........ It's no use going over and over again and reinventing it. Facts is facts. He had £5 and a month paid absence to put his sketch designs into life. The mag had to be the one that was already in production BUT shorter so that it could be carried in the new 37 pattern pouches. And incidentally, produced at a rate of 17 per Sten produced so with 4.2 million Stens made, there should never ever be a world shortage in my humble opinion. That MP mags fit is by dint of coincidence of ancestry. And to be fair and looking from the bleedin obvious point of view, Britain in 1940/41 wasn't exactly brimming over with MP40 magazines.
The rest they say, is history, a bit like designing the Mk5 to take some of the readily available No4 parts