M341 British No32 MkI Sniper Telescopic Sight.
Is this of interest to anyone?
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M341 British No32 MkI Sniper Telescopic Sight.
Is this of interest to anyone?
The scope bracket is an obvious fake. I have to wonder about the rest of it.
Hi
both myself and a friend took a punt on these. These are the pics of mine.
Attachment 73257Attachment 73258Attachment 73256Attachment 73254Attachment 73255
His tin is green-painted with red squares on the bottom (from memory) corners. The tools and the metal-work of the scope on both were lightly coated with cosmoline. My bracket has AR 3453 and a JG stamped on it. The two caps are marked A43 and B44. The tool is stamped Tool No32 STG TEL Mk1.
As you say, the mount looks a fake. Not too sure about the tin or the tool.
However, both the scopes seem the real deal (are there fake Mk1s about?) Optics are bright and the windage and elevation work as they should.
Donald
Yes. Technically most all are.Quote:
Originally Posted by DonaldD
Quite a few noticeable differences between the scope in question and a known original H.B.M. Co. Mk.1. I'm pretty sure it's a fake, but I could be wrong.
Fake as a 3$ bill.Quote:
Originally Posted by DonaldD
Whole thing is fake...
The tin looks real, but the rivets are the giveaway to me that it's actually a fake...
And at about $1500 CDN, that would be a huge mistake for a well meaning purchase...
The other thing to consider, is how these fakes keep getting better and better. With not too many more outward improvements they will get pretty close to the real thing, uninformed buyers beware i guess!
There will come a time when the market is full of externally indistinguishable fakes, and when most owners will be reluctant to actually shoot (and break) them and may never know they paid full price for a copy.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1967
We could be only 50 years or less from the tipping point.
It will just take one generation gap for some well meaning, technically minded writer to attempt to supersede Peter's work, disassemble a fake and unwittingly document it as genuine design. Once that happens the fraud will gradually become accepted as some bastard or "prototype" genuine article.
Having a book published with a glaring error happens on occasion, but there is little editorial oversight on the internet and it's current proliferation of free information and advice.
One of the few redeeming factors currently is these fake scopes look "new" in very good condition, once they age get knocked about and patina only the sharpest will catch the frauds. Take for example Civil War militaria, it's a hotbed of fakes, and old enough that even fakes are can be well aged. I am glad that I don't collect in that market, too high risk.
I've believed this for a while now, and because of it sold my LL M1 rifle some time ago. I was afraid after a time, still in my lifetime, people would be afraid to buy good stuff without a full 6 week course on recognition. I've seen foreign nationals wandering the Calgary gunshow making substantial purchase of collectible artifacts and shipping them overseas. I can't help but think it's for copy and distribution...of the fakes...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentryduty
someone put some time and energy into adding signs of use to that set up. it would have fooled me. edit. not the mount though... i've learned a few things here.
Thanks folks for all the advice.
The mount wasn't what I was after, it was the tin. I reckoned I could sell the scope, repro mount and tool and get a cheap tin - even if that was a repro. However, I was naïve with regards to the scope. Until I carefully compared it side by side with my own one (and vintage hunter's pics), I was happy enough with it. It will be heading back for a refund - one benefit of buying from a dealer with a 28 day return policy.
Looks like I'll be off to Fleabay or that French site for a repro tin at market price :yikes:
Donald
There is a slight up side to the fakes market if I might dare be the devils advocate. I was at a gun show in the UK several years ago and saw a tray full of oily bracket cradle cap screws and bracket thumbscrews. The prices being asked for a single thumbscrew and cradle cap screw was horrendous. Even MORE so to me, who'd seen a zillion in his life before. I asked '.....is that for a full bracket set......?' (meaning 2x thumb screws and 8x cradle cap screws). No he replied, that's EACH ......, these are original.
Within a year these little items were being mass produced on capstan lathes in small machine shops. Effectively leaving the greedy ba........, er....., person with a load of unsaleable stock. Or certainly unsaleable until he gets into the real world.
I could cite another even better example but...........
I feel sad for the duped people and agree with sentry duty and BAR it wont take 50 years it will be more like 15 and we will see the stuff coming o/seas like from India with some of our hard to get Aus WWI military badges faked and patina'ed nicely even the MkIII compasses even though you can pick them easily now it wont be long.
I am into my collecting as weird and eclectic as it is do it to protect what little is left before the b*rstards completely homogenize the market with fake after fake until we will not really know whats what unless some on gets together to write a book on the fakes. I got caught with a set of 25th LH collars (to match my real 25th LH hat badge) yep as fake as a piece of cheddar cheese on a mouse trap.
What to do I cannot say except to thank the sterling work this site does to help people who collect military kit in spotting the fakes and discovering a sleeper which we all hope to do one day.......sadly no refund for me dang it.
I was going to ask members advice on this very item as I was wondering what would be a fair price assuming that it is a genuine scope and mount. Normally/often, W.W. Arms will include the word Pattern in the description if the item that they are selling is a reproduction item. A simple way to find out about this particular product would be to e-mail them and ask, unambiguously, if the scope, mount and case are original or reproduction items.
Distance Selling Legislation applies so make sure you get all your postage costs refunded as well as the purchase price of the scope. This includes postage costs of the item to you from the seller World Wide Arms and your costs to send back to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by DonaldD
Come on chaps................. Surely the price would tell you that it wasn't all the real McCoy...... No, it just SHOUTS that it ain't. It might be overpriced for a fake, but that's not the same as being ripped off for being underpriced is it?
Added as an afterthought. The Mk3 compasses that Cinders mentioned won't fool anyone, believe me. Put it this way....... You wouldn't want to trek across the Kalahari desert with one unless your idea of magnetic North differs from the accepted direction of........er..... North!!
Donald, before you look at ebay and the French website, when I get some funds together will be importing a few more tins in the near future, so will be available and for a very reasonable price.
These will be also sprayed once they arrive in Deep Bronze green, I,ll post a pic when I get back home of an original tin and the repro one (in deep bronze green)
I did mention that Peter about how poorly made they were the MkIII compasses they are so shoddy a blind person could pick them but just give them time and you will be hard pressed to pick them.:confused:
Peter, could you please give us a ball park figure of the sort of money we should expect to pay for an original No32 scope, mount and case in good condition? Having never attempted to purchase an example myself I have no idea what I should expect to pay for a good used example. I am prepared to hold my hand up as some-one who has been fooled by the fake MK3 compass which Cinders mentions although my example is one of the better fakes and it did take me a while before I realised that I had been conned. This compass was picked up at a local aution house so there was no come back on the seller.
An original 32 scope sold in a local auction for £500 (hammer price ) it was complete but was like looking through a milk bottle, in need of a full rebuild...
It later was re sold on eBay and went for north of £700 with ( as far as I could see) with no work done
But a couple of years ago I got a full set of eBay scope , tin ,and mount all original for £400
A real case of how long is a piece of string ( and how long do you want it)
Its what people are prepared to pay like always!
$1800.oo ~ $2200.oo/AU here in Aus when they crop up.