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Hello,
I picked up a Springfield 1479207 with a SA 12-36 barrel and boxed DAL cartouche. It has what looks like original finish and is in exceptional shape, mint bore. Back in the day you could go on the internet and run your serial and find out if it was listed. I'm thinking that database was bought out / taken over. Can anyone help me with any background or hit on this serial? I will post pics when I take them. Thanks in advance.
Regards,
HB
It could be either an original NM, or sold as a receiver. Is the bolt polished and serialized to the rifle? Is the stock serialized to the action, on bottom right in front of the rear sling swivel?
1479200A1NM 082936DCM RIFLE SALES 1922-42
1479208RCVR 051838DCM RIFLE SALES 1922-42
1479225A1NM 082836DCM RIFLE SALES 1922-42
1479282A1NM 091238DCM RIFLE SALES 1922-42
Thanks Promo. All the parts look consistent in wear and age, it came out of an old collection of original stuff. The inside rails and follower are polished, but the bolt is a 1941 era dark grey parkerized BF / SA (I think a BF 38), not polished NM bolt. Stock is circle P on the wrist and boxed DAL and everything fits like it was assembled as it is and just never really issued or used. Bore is mirror, could have a NM star, but I don't think so. It's got old air rust and patina. It hasn't been reparked, the parts are a bit different in finish and the rear sight base, etc. is still in the white. Could it have been a spare receiver built into a service rifle at SA in the period 1940-1942? I presume if it was sold through the DCM then perhaps it would be listed in those sales records, but if used by the military to make a rifle in 1941 that it would not? Thanks for your help and opinions.
I don't know if it's the photos, but the rails almost look polished. If you don't know what I mean, pull your bolt out and take a pic of inside the receiver.
Edit. Duh you said they were polished. lol
---------- Post added at 05:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:22 PM ----------
I've seen some where the star on the muzzle is almost really worn off. You could pull the handguard and see if it has a star guage record number on the barrel.
It could be the "star" mark at 6 o'clock, but I will need to bronze brush it a bit. It's shiny because of the Ballistol; this is the first wiping it's likely had in a long time and there is air rust, etc. Pics of various parts.
My SA 1903 is serial number 1479546 and without the Hatcher hole, barrel is SA 9-35 but not a NM rifle, bolt is NS marked
Your serial # places the rifle in the 1934-35 range . The 1936 barrel may be a replacement No punch mark in the ordnance bomb ??. The Dal straight finger groove stock ended early 30s. May have been a shooter preference vs a C stock that was available . Any CV marked sear or striker rod ? The P proof on top of the barrel in front of the sight base indicates a star gaged barrel , Numbers on the rt side of the rear sight base or X marked ? Nice rifle >
Lt, there is a very distinct (bad pic) seraph "P" stamp on top of he barrel and there may be a star at the 6 o'clock. We are in between houses and I don't have my bronze brushes here to see. I did not see a CV striker or sear. No numbers on the right side by the sight base or X marking. You know that look parts get when they've been with the rifle since it was assembled? This one has that. I'm in it cheaper than the value of the parts, so I'm not wishful thinking this.
Was the boxed DAL in use into the late 30s to 42 period at SA? If it was a late 39 or early 40-42 SA build would it have an SA cartouche? I have a like new papered M1903A1 NM with the DAL, and a late RIA / built by SA with the SA/JFC cartouche. I guess my hope was that it was a build for service use in WW2. The description was sparse when I got it. Thanks for the help guys.
The Polished Rails look correct for a factory NM. The location of the 343 number is in the exact same location as my buddies star guage number on his 12/36 NM barrel. It's interesting though that this doesn' t have the drawing number on the rear sight base, or the CV marked trigger parts. I could see the Trigger parts possibly being swapped, but the lack of the drawing number RSB is what I don't understand if that barrel is original to the receiver.
I know back then you could buy star gauged barrels loose, but I don't know if you could buy a polished rail receiver.
I know of a 1.45 NM that is original that has a March or April 1936 barrel so to me this barrel date seems about right for the receiver.
If I had to take a wild guess, it looks like a NM that has had a lot lot changed for shooter preference, or some NM parts bought loose back then and mixed with regular parts for a build.
That is a mint looking rifle though! I like it!
I would guess the stock was taken from an earlier rifle. The NM, after about 1929, used Type C stocks. Daniel Leary, DAL, inspected "regular" M1903s into the early 1920s, then inspected NM rifles into the mid 1930s, when later ones had an SA/SPG (Stanley Gibbs). I would agree with Steve's "prognosis" as to the rifle's origins.
I have a considerably earlier M1903 NM rifle, 1370112, with a Type C stock with a DAL stamp.
A star gauged rifle will have the registry stamp, usually a letter and 3-5 numbers, on the top of the barrel, about 1/3 of the way from the receiver end. The marking shown in the picture is the steel lot code, I believe.
A star gaged barrel with a drawing #C 64112 The number indicated a National Match rifle assemble . A star gaged barrel could have been purchased C64111 barrel only I believe you have a star gaged barrel Standard issue barrels are P proofed on the bottom Your is on top . I think the barrel is a bit late for the receiver .I did note the rear sight base windage scale is polished A plus The rear base may have came with the barrel, Need to see pic of the sight base cross pin .
It's odd because it looks like it was manufactured this way. Or at least it's been together a very long time as there is consistent wear (very little to none), the parts are original finish, and there is even patina over the piece. It could have been a DCM sale like this or NM sale, or someone just put it together from parts bought from DCM?
According to Brophy There were no national Match rifles produced during 1934 and 1935 and only 350 or so during 1933 That would indicate your rifle was assembled from parts .if your serial # falls in the 34 35 range A 1936 barrel may be unexplainable
If this rifle or receiver is not listed as a DCM or NM sale, could it have been something put aside for that, but unsold to civilians, and then assembled at SA for military use in the 1940s? I collect military rifles, not particularly M1903s and I have a documented M1903A1 NM rifle. I can say that this thing looks like it was assembled like this long ago, and has not been mixed up or changed around.
The only component later than the late 30s is the bolt, a BF 38 (1941), and the wear and finish on it is consistent with the rest of the rifle. I'm familiar with what put together rifles look like, and they invariably display "variance" in condition and fitting that the same rifle that has been together with the same components for 70 years. The parts, even with different finishes, tend to "merge" together as one. You guys know what I mean. I appreciate the opinions and help and am not piping sunshine and stories up my own behind, except to justify keeping this thing as part of my WW2 military rifle collection ;)
Yeah that has been together a long time. I have no doubt about that.
The only rifles listed as NM in the SRS are the ones who were sold commercially to Civilians. If for example a military rifle team owned a NM Rifle, that serial would only be listed in the SRS if Frank found the military document it was listed on. Which about never happened.
I have seen rifles that I think were NM that were sent through various stages of rebuild and ended up in duty as a regular service rifle. It's very possible.
It would seem to make sense that with WW2 pending in 1941, and particularly after Dec. 7, 1941, anything SA had would be finished up and out the door for military use and not DCM or civilian sales. We went from an army of 250,000 in 1940 to 3,000,000 in 1942. Those folks needed to be armed quick.
likely a special target.. not star gauged.. rail has a punch mark..every ST and NM iv seen have this punch mark
According to the Big Cheese.. ALL 1903 rifles have the punch mark . Some even 2 It has nothing to do with NM or T polished rails . Old Maid`s tale Check closely your standard 03s Its hard to see under the Parkerizing .
Did the punch mark denote assembly into a barreled action?
It is unknown .The punch is very light almost intended or machine applied .It may be a hardness test or case depth . I believe if you check other standard issue 03s you will see the punch mark as well .I think it is mistakenly associated with NM & T rifles with polished rails making the punch easily visible on a polished rail .Sorry to drag the thread . Good luck with your find >
I used to think it was a trait of Match rifles as well, but the more I investigated it, it's present on all late Springfield Receivers, match or not. LT1 is correct on that. I think now it was just a hardness test on the receiver, done by Springfield.
The weird thing is, I've seen many of them on Low Number and RIA Marine Rebuild Rifles as well. Some have been very early serials. So I also think the Marines or Navy might have done it for a short period of time somewhere probably around WWII when all those changes were happening.
I think it is present on my RIA / SA receiver build SA/JFC. I think it would be great if someone could find out definitively what those punches meant and who did them. We know that on certain German rifles smaller punches indicate assembly or rebuild.
I don't think the barrel is late for the S/N. my 1475333 came with 6 or 7-36 barrel, (can't remember, on is a spare I got for it years ago) I also ran across another 1.47 rifle locally that had a 4-36 barrel on it.
M1903 rifles in the 1930s were pieced together, as needed and the barrel would often not be a perfect "match" for the receiver.
Rick, if a rifle, such as mine posted, was not listed on a DCM sales list, would that possibly indicate that it was assembled for service use? All of the parts are consistent with a late 30s assembly, except the bolt which is a BF 38. All of the parts are consistent in condition and age and look like they've been together from the "beginning". Could it be a rifle originally intended for perhaps a NM assembly (polished rails) but which was finished with a parkerized bolt for service use? Did polished bolts matter in service? I know that the Germans required a blued bolt, to the extent that captured rifles (e.g., Vz.24s) with bright bolts got their bolts blued as a matter of course. I'm not trying to bamboozle myself or engaged in wishful thinking (I would like this to be a service rifle).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick the Librarian
thanks,
HB
Edit: Picture of the barrel markings / drawing no.:
Keep in mind these rifles have been out of service since the end of WWII. Chances are you will never know the true story - all we can do is guess, based on observation. A lot could have happened in 70+ years.