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I recently got a 1919a4 demilled display gun. It says IMA on the sideplate so I assume it came from them. Most internals are missing and the barrel is welded shut. It's chambered in 7.62x51 as far as I can tell.
I want to build it into a semi auto. I have a 30/06 barrel. I need all the info I can get to put it back together. Like can I use the 06 barrel? Do I need a different bolt? What all do I need to know to build it? and where is the best place for information and parts?
If you would like to read a lot of past threads on this topic, then try our Google CSE custom search engine located in the top right corner of the site. It only searches our site using Google techniques and can be quite efficient. For example, in your case, type in the word 1919a4 and see what happens ..
I checked and there are dozens of old posts covering that topic… ;)
Regards,
Doug
Semi parts > Semi Auto - 1919A4 Parts - Parts
You can use your 30.06 barrel. You will need to change the booster and feedway spacers.
If you have an Israeli 7.62x51 modified bolt it will work with 30.06 and 8mm. For 30.06 a 30.06 bolt works best.
It’s probably one of the easiest builds.
If it was a gun done by the Canadians, we changed all the cams to accommodate the shorter 7.62. That was in the 1919A4 (C5)...it should be Canadian marked though if it is. That would mean the 30 cal parts were gone... That means more work to convert back... It's best I think, to use new .30 cal parts. Don't try to cobble...my opinion... We have the guys here to assist you through it.
Why change the caliber back to 30/06??? Keep it NATO. Both calibers are readily available and about the same price. You would be spending $$$ for No noticeable gain.
Sarge
Good point Sarge...If the frame is currently 7.62 and the cams and levers are correct...but he has the .30 cal barrel he wants to use. He could do what we did I guess...we turned the chamber end off and re cut chambers, added a longer and new barrel bearing to the muzzle. It turned and was obvious, didn't work perfectly either. I think Numrich has the parts kits, also Israeli if I recall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge
I could never really get our Canadian C5 Browning to work properly, even after one of the top RCEME Armourers came in and had a look (forget name now.....). The trouble was that when we wanted to fire one and demanded .300" ball/tracer, it'd come back '.....use the 7.62mm gun' otherwise the Ammo people would have to purchase .300" ball from authorised trade suppliers and all that that entails. Don't tell anyone this now....... But it meant that a certain amount of bartering took place. A bit like lend-lease but only on a larger scale!
How much of this display piece is functional/salvageable?Quote:
Originally Posted by kenwest516
That's a very pertinent Q Tiriaq. Surprised we didn't think of that before. A bit like the '......I've got a broken down car, can you fix it' scenario.
The reason I was thinking of going 30/06 was because of the barrel I have. But I have no problem staying 7.62x51. I'm just learning about these so I'll answer what I can. When I learn how to post pics I will so you know what I'm working with. It was all together for display. It has a bolt and barrel extension in it. The bolt is marked 7.62. The lock frame is gone the trigger was cut off and welded to a flat plate just so it was there for display. sights top cover and latch are there, It needs a little bit of work to close but appears complete to me as far as my knowledge of it goes right now. The chamber of the barrel is welded shut. It has the pistol grip. The rod and spring that you push in when taking the grip off(can't remember what its called). The barrel shroud is on it. The side plate is marked NO.(no number)BROWNING MACHINE GUN. US. CAL. 30 MFG. IMA. It is about A half inch thick and appears to be smooth on the inside. The only thing cut out is the slot for the bolt handle. The only other markings I see so far is the flaming bomb and P on the top and left side plate 7.62 on the bolt,rear sight, left side plate and the pieces in the top cover and receiver that would guide the belt in. BCI on the top cover latch. And what looks like a square with no bottom on the left side plate and top cover. aside from that just a few numbers on some other parts.
I also have a huge advantage on this project. I have access to a cutaway trainer. I will try to get it torn down this week to see exactly what all is missing or different.
That was because they didn't completely change them over until just before we scrapped them. You may have had a C1 Machine gun, (C4, C5) came later. They all had mods, but the first was really a .30 cal with a barrel and bolt...maybe discriminator changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Ours was the later pattern Jim, as confirmed by Gary when he came over to see what we could do. It seemed as though the 7.62 just didn't have enough puff to cycle the recoil action.
kenwest516--Quote:
Originally Posted by kenwest516
Sounds like you have one of the IMA display guns. The guns are built to preclude swapping parts to prevent either semi-auto or full auto fire. The internal parts are toast for conversion to semi auto. You will at least a new semi-auto right side plate, a new barrel and a set of semi-auto internals to get started. All of which are obtainable in the US. I believe the IMA parts sets were from former Israeli modified guns. If you have all of the original Israeli modified by will find "7.62" marked on the left side plate. All other Israeli parts will have a "n" marked on them. You will also have to obtain Israeli M2 links for the gun to work.
--fjruple
---------- Post added at 06:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 AM ----------
Peter--Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Sound like the gun had the .30-06 instead of the 7.62mm booster.
--fjruple
Jim--Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Not to hijack this thread here's several pics of my semi auto C5A1.
--fjruple
Attachment 73442
Attachment 73443
Quite so. Remember what cartridge it was designed for. Seems for every major mod there's about 8 minor mods. It was never right so enter the C6(MAG 58)...and the problems stopped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Sound logic but by this time, I'd have been surprised if all that stock hadn't been expunged from the system. Possible though. I did come across a Centurion tank ranging gun barrel once when we ordered new .50 barrels.Quote:
Originally Posted by fjruple
Nice, nice...I carried those a long way when I was much younger. I was specially proud to because my dad had done so before me...all through Europe. I'd love to handle that one a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by fjruple
Thanks fjruple I see what all is cut down now that I looked around more. Yes it israeli. Before I cut the rivets out. Does anyone know if IMA done anything to the left side to make it inert? I hate to cut it apart to find its junk it makes a nice display. I would still love t make it semi if I'm still able.
The leftside plate should be OK. I would just check the feed cams to make sure they are not broken or damaged. If you post pics of your concern areas on the forum or PM for my email address we can better access your issues. You main concern with the casing (receiver) is to make sure the trunnion, bottom and top plates are not damaged. I have seen several display models were these parts were welded to the right side plate. These parts are available in newly manufactured form but are expensive. I see you are located PA which town? I am located in Southern New Jersey. You make also want to become a member of the 1919A4.com forum. Lots of expertise there as well plus vendors that specializes in the Browning MGs.Quote:
Originally Posted by kenwest516
--fjruple
Central PA close Altoona . I don't see any welds anywhere. I'll try to get some pictures up tonight if not then this weekend. Thanks for all your help.
Ok O got some pictures on here but I cant figure out how to get them in the post. They are in the photo gallery under my user name. I see now the bolt and barrel busing are junk as just as fjruple said they would be.
The plate inside on the right inside pic number 12 doesn't look right. Something added and riveted in. It shouldn't be there for a regular gun.
Yes. Apart from whatever else was done to the thing, there is a great thick plate added to the RHSP and corresponding parts are altered to suit.
Seems as if a decent 1919A4 parts kit goes for the better part of $1500 these days. Are there enough salvageable parts in the display piece to justify cutting it apart, and replacing what is required to make up a functional semi auto?
kenwest516--Quote:
Originally Posted by kenwest516
Well, I looked at your pics that you posted and it does not look good. There is still hope to get you to a fully functional gun. On the plus side, your gun has a chrome plated trunnion block (post WWII) and the bottom plate is manufactured by Buffalo Arms and quite looked for by BA builders, BA stop making M1919A4 in 1943/1944 to concentrate on M2 .50 cal production. You are going to have to completely disassemble the Casing Assembly group (receiver) into its individual parts due to the poor riveting and welding. Great care is going to have to be exercise as not to further damage the bottom, top plate and trunnion block in its disassembly. Can you remove the barrel from the gun? The barrel obviously been demilled and will have to be replaced. You also need a complete semi-auto rightside plate (controlled item), and a complete set of semi-auto internal parts which include the lock frame group, barrel extension group, breech bolt group, breech lock cam and screw. I also note that you are missing the Izzy Front and rear cartridge stops and guides to fire the 7.62mm NATO cartridge.
This is just a start. It would have been a lot easier to build from a complete parts set then a display gun. On the plus side the M1919A4 parts are still available. Please send me a PM with your email address it would be easier to communicate and help you.
--fjruple
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiriaq
The IMA display 1919’s were selling for $1,500 a year or two ago. They are hard to find now.
I would sell the display or trade it for a parts kit. It would be a lot less work and cost less.
Nice semi-autos are selling for around $5,000.
Might make sense to sell the unit as is, and put the money toward a parts kit, KMP 70% RHSP, sear, trigger, trigger spring, and the required machining on the internals. This way, all the parts are going to be usable, and it won't be necessary to chase down odds and ends. If the machining on the bolt, barrel extension, and lock frame is done by someone who knows what he is doing, assembling the gun is pretty straightforward, and there is a strong probability that the gun is going to run from the get go.
A batch of TNW M37s w/mount, links, etc. just sold out in Canada @$8000 retail. Heard there were about 20 guns. To meet current rules for importation, these had to have new made sideplates, top and bottom plates, and trunnion.
fjruple I sent you a pm with my e-mail address. The thick part that your seeing is the right side plate.That is how thick they made it then cut the internals to match so the bolt could be cycled. The barrel can not be removed with the thick side plate in place it hits the edge.
I want to thank everyone here you have been extremely helpful so far .Since a lot has been pointed out to me and I've been all over the internet in the last few days and learned quite a bit about the 1919. I'm considering buying a parts kit. I'm in the display very well so I wont be out much. It seems what I know about it so far the work involved will be more with the display. If I buy the kit it will cost a little more but will be less work.
[QUOTE=kenwest516;366475]fjruple I sent you a pm with my e-mail address. The thick part that your seeing is the right side plate.That is how thick they made it then cut the internals to match so the bolt could be cycled. The barrel can not be removed with the thick side plate in place it hits the edge.
I want to thank everyone here you have been extremely helpful so far .Since a lot has been pointed out to me and I've been all over the internet in the last few days and learned quite a bit about the 1919. I'm considering buying a parts kit. I'm in the display very well so I wont be out much. It seems what I know about it so far the work involved will be more with the display. If I buy the kit it will cost a little more but will be less work.[/QUOTE
kenwest 516--
CAn you remove the booster from the end of barrel jacket?
fjruple
The barrel bearing and plug simply unscrews with a tool that was issued or a flat steel bar across the screw slot in the front...Quote:
Originally Posted by fjruple
It might have a locking ring between the end cap and the barrel sleeve that is staked into the cap and sleeve. If it's covered in paint you can't see them.
A good strap wrench might help, but you almost need the right tool...and a second set of hands.
Got the barrel off. Cant get the bearing and plug separated, but not sure I have to the more I look at it. Going to try to get time to drill the rivets out tomorrow after work. Then get the side plate off. I'll get more pictures up after that.
kenwest516--Quote:
Originally Posted by kenwest516
I would not separate the bearing and plug. I just make sure that the opening in the booster plug is 13.5 mm in diameter. Before you drill the rivets out you may want to remove the barrel jacket. From your pictures it looks like the barrel jacket is just screwed on. I believe the holes in the barrel jacket are about 5/8 inch in diameter. Make sure the casing group is secure in a padded vise use a car jacket handle (they fit perfectly in the barrel jacket holes). Insert the jacket into the holes nearest the trunnion block. Going in a counterclockwise motion (Righty tighty, lefty loosy) using a firm pressure unscrew the barrel jacket from the trunnion block. This will give you a better handling of the casing group to remove the rivets. I would do the bottom plate first. I would use a drill press to drill out the rivets. Center punch the dome rivet heads to keep the drill bit from moving. The rivet holes are 5/16 in diameter with a small centersink on the outside. I use a larger drill bit and only drill down enough (DO NOT drill all the way though the rivet) to remove the rivet heads then use a chisel and hammer to remove the domehead if it still on the rivet. Using a 5/16 punch I punch out the rivet into the casing group. On the rightside plate that going to a little difficult as the rivets are welded into the right side plate from the inside. I would do the same for the rightside plate as I did to the left except you are going to drill the rivet down enough with a 5/16 drill bit to clear the bottom plate from the right side plate. You do not want to oversize the rivet holes. With both side done you should be able to knock off the bottom plate. The same process is used on the top plate except once you remove the rivets you remove the top plate by pushing it to the rear and off of the two casing sideplates.
When you are ready to remove the side plates from the trunnion block please let me know and I will walk you through you that as well.
--fjruple
Yes, the whole front piece stays together. There'll be a small washer that moves. There also should be a screw holding the barrel jacket to the threaded shank on the receiver. One side or the other. Flat tip counter sunk screw... Like he said, careful when you do it, you can mess this up a bit if not. Some of these have been on there a long time...
fjruple The shroud was off when I took the barrel off.It does have a little previous damage on the receiver end. Is slightly flared. It's useable, I'll probably replace it before I get it reparkerised. But that's down the road when I find someone who can do it. It unscrewed from the trunnion before the bearing and plug screwed out of it. I sent you pictures in an E-mail after it was all apart. It don't look like the pictures sent for some reason.
browningautorifle There was no lock screw. The hole is in the trunnion and in the shroud, but no screw. It was turned past probably causing the slight flair on the shroud.
I'm A mechanic drilled bolts and rivets many times. Thanks for explaining it though. Its all apart. I used 3/16 1/4 then 3/8 and took the head off the rivets in the trunnion from the right side The bit did deflect a little on two holes in the bottom plate, but nothing I'm concerned about. I didn't attempt to take the bearing and plug apart and I'm not going too as per suggestions here. It is marked 13.5. I will measure it. (I just realized the battery is dead in my calipers.)Nothing else looks harmed as you said. I will try to get more pics up soon.
Numrich has new .308 barrels. Ohio Ordnance works has the bolt barrel extension and trigger assemblies. I have to look around for cartridge stops.
I got Ohio Ordnance semi auto parts. Sorry no pictures yet. When I'm looking at cartridge stops how do I know if they are Israili? Or will any 7.62 stops work?
A note of caution for anyone contemplating a similar operation on a .30" Cal MG.
In British Service, the Barrel jacket (Shroud) was also 'swetted' to the threaded portion of the Trunnion Block. With soft solder. It was part of any routine inspection procedure, to grip the jacket by hand. & twist left & right, to see if there was any looseness.
If this as the case, it was removed & cleaned up. Then re-tinned with solder. & the same process applied to the trunnion block threads.
Both areas reheated, & then screwed up correctly. retention screw refitted & staked in place. If there was 'overturn/ underturn' of the jacket. It was screwed up as described. & a new hole drilled & countersunk in the jacket. To align with the Threaded hole in the trunnion block. Screw refitted & staked. If it was discovered on any gun, that refitting the jacket. resulted in the jacket butting up & over/ under turning so that only HALF of the screw hole was observed. & new jacket, or exchanging used jackets until a suitable one was correctly aligned. Was also acceptable. If there was play in a loose jacket, this would obviously result in poor accuracy!
When a lot of .30 Browning armed tanks were firing their Brownings (usually ast the hundreds of fig 11 targets spread across the whole range area - meant to represent thousands of charging VC or NVA or Chinese Infantry, you could always tell the Brownings with a loose barrel jacket as you could see the tracer bullets spread about all over the place wildly in front of you. That was a sure sign that the gun needed fixing later. The tank crews didn't care too much, not when they had zillions of rounds to get rid of before the end of the week.
And if the zillions of wasted .30 didn't kill all of the targets then the follow-up cannister rounds did. Imagine a 120mm shotgun on steroids............ There were two types. The first fired a zillion-x finger diameter 1" or so long sharp guillotine chopped re-bar type things. And the second type, for close in protection - so said - fired about 10 zillion steel guillotine chopped square steel plates, each approx 3/4" x 3/4" with razor sharp curled edges. These shredded anything. You could hose down other tanks that were being swamped.
Happy days on the ranges as young Armourers eh Tankie?
[Ken--Quote:
Originally Posted by kenwest516
Keep in mind that Ohio Ordnance semi auto parts are cut differently for their proprietary semi-auto Rightside plate. They may not fit the "KMP" type semi auto rightside plate. The Israeli cartridge stops can be easily identified by a Hebrew character and "7.62" stamps on them. I will see if I can find some pics of them.
--fjruple
Please note Israeli right rear cartridge stop attached to right side plate.
Attachment 73839
Attachment 73838
And played hell on the barrels I should think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
They weren't too bad on Barrels TBH. And we had PLENTY of 'Em' spare to be utilised! ;)
Yes Pete, very Happy Days indeed! Nothing like riding in the Turret across the barren plains of BATUS training area in Canada. Hundered & hundereds of miles of Fu......Errrr. Nothing at all! Firing Truckloads of out of date ammo. To use it up 'for training purposes only'!......Never in my life had I seen laxness on the issue of ammo, you could ask for & get. Just about anything you wanted! I used to Command a ferret Scout Car with rotating turret with a .30" Browning MG in it. Simply 'spraying' anything & everywhere you wanted! Unbelieveable Fun! LOL The hardest thing, was trying to find something to actually shoot at. As the area was a Barren Desert! The odd Cent Tank Hulk here & there. 'Bunkers' constructed from empty steel ammo boxes, wired together in a square. Riddled like cullenders! Firing Carl Gustav Anti-Tank Guns with SO MANY training Rounds. You fell off the firing Point, 'Punch Drunk' with the backblast vacuum's. Yep, Happy Days indeed!
You'll be pleased to note that not much has changed. Except that some years back the ferrets that were being used as range markers and targets were withdrawn and sent to Wainwright. They ranged from shot to sh*t to minor repairs and drive. Two made their way to local storage...after some cannibalization...Quote:
Originally Posted by tankhunter
Hi Jim, It is good to hear that at least two Ferrets have been saved. I have owned Three Privately, & worked on them in Service also.
A very nice & reliable little Scout Car when up & running. If maintainance is performed periodicly, they are a doddle to run & most reliable. :thup:
I saw them in service too and did battle drills off the back of a Cent... Yes, he's very proud to have them, he was a M4 driver when he was a reservist and these were common use then, out in Meaford On where he did his training. They'll stay in his mass until his expiration date is stamped...along with his as new #4T that he just purchased...which according to him will be mine when he goes...unless I go first.
Finally getting back to the 1919 project things have been very busy. Sorry no new pictures yet. I got the Ohio Ordnance parts. Side plate and all major internals. I need a little info on squaring the receiver. I can only get 5 of the 8 holes aligned on the right side plate. All 5 in a row front to rear. I'm still working on the left side. I have 2 in it in the back two holes. I don't want to take too much material off of anything while trying to fit it all together. Any suggestions?
Ken--
Are you using the original left side plate with the original bottom plate?
--fjruple
Yes it's all the same parts except the new right side plate
Is the left plate an original or one IMA made?
The left plate is original. It's all very close. I can tell they forced the old rivets in when they made the display gun. Nothing seems far enough out of place to be ruined. I need to know what the measurements should be when finished so I know where and how much to file off to get it all to fit. I assume the top and bottom of the hole should measure the same when viewed from the pistol grip end of the receiver. Then that should bring everything else into place. would I be correct?
Ken--
I will see if I can find my M1919A4 receiver drawing and send it to you. That will give you the specification that you need.
--fjruple