Bore Cleaners & Type 4 Trigger Housings - Oops

So recently I shot my M1 Carbine in a match, and afterwards began load development for it. I'm quite a fan of Wipe-Out foaming bore cleaner, and am well aware of what it does to brass and copper after accidentally dropping some on a spent case and letting it sit.

So after shooting a fair amount of rounds through it in a match, and wishing to get it really clean before working on hand loads, I went to shoot some in the barrel, which didn't go as planned as I was about out so rather than foaming it just shot a nice wet stream down the bore, soaking and go right through the paper towel I had stuffed in the chamber and closed the bolt on. Wiped the mess up, let it do it's thing in the bore and thought nothing of it.

So when shooting it today I noticed my mag release was a bit sticky and I was having a heck of a time getting magazines in and out. When I got home from the range and was cleaning it, I took it down to see what was up.

Unfortunately, in a horrible moment of non-thinking I forgot that a type-IV trigger housing is braised together with copper. A remover like wipe out doesn't discriminate, and had run onto and in my trigger housing. Now not only had the copper brazing turned an ugly black/green, it had also formed a gummy residue.

At this point it's apart and being cleaned. It really only affected one side of the exterior, but the previously clean braze is now tarnished and ugly. In addition it was quite difficult to clean as the reside is sticky and persistent, though it doesn't appear to have actually eaten it too badly, if at all.

So while I'm sure experienced shooters of these guns think about that, I didn't think and paid the price. It's not something you normally think about on a gun but I felt it was worth posting as a reminder or precaution for anyone else thinking of using a heavy duty bore cleaner, as a spill can wind up doing a nice job on copper in places other than your bore.

Wash it off with soap and water. It didn't hurt anything. Use brass black if you want to dull the braze.

Okay, I'll offer some professional advise. Since working for Pac-Nor Precision Barreling I have learned so much about bore cleaning. Being in law enforcement and armory sergeant I thought I knew something about cleaning a bore. Boy was I ever wrong!!!



You all know what Kroil is, right? Okay
You all know what 600 grit aluminum oxide powder is, right?





Mix the two and holy cow!!!





The aluminum oxide powder will not, can not damage your steel barrels. Your barrels will shine like a new dime after using this mixture :D

Billy's tech tip for the day ;)


Bonus tip

You have a .30 caliber bore, use a .33 caliber brush. Always step up to the next size caliber and always use brass brushes. Never (NEVER) use a nylon brush.

The only thing you have to be aware of when cleaning a brazed trigger housing is to not use anything like Phosphoric Acid which will 'bleach' out the Parkerizing on the steel parts. What you did didn't permanently damage the braze. There are several ways of cleaning the residues off the braze without harming it or the adjacent finishes. It depends on what the 'gummy' build-up is. Probably hot soapy water and a toothbrush would do it.

I would only add that some copper fouling in a barrel isn't necessarily a bad thing. In fact, I would go for months, many months with my rifle barrels and they shot just the same. On a pitted barrel, the fouling actually helps smooth it out. Point being, these 30 cal barrels just don't need to be cleaned to that extent to shoot well. Some match rifles need to be cleaned between shots, some once a year. with these 30 calibers, it just isn't that important to get all excited about it. A hoppies soaked patch followed by a couple of clean ones and done.

The last thing I would use as a "cleaner" is a mixture of Aluminum Oxide and Kroil. Aluminum Oxide is an "Abrasive" we use to "Hone" cylinders and bores. All machinist know this, and use it, as an abrasive cutting compound, continued use of this WILL make your bore bright..........at the expense of making your bore bigger! FWIW

I completely forgot about this post after the initial reply, oops!

A brush and some soapy water did clean it up, but it took awhile to get it out of some of the nooks and crannies seems to look okay now. Wouldn't advocate getting careless with it again though. I am glad I took the time to clean it well, though not as bad as my Mauser. Don't plan to use this stuff on a regular basis as I do agree they some shoot better once they get some copper build up but I feel it certainly helped on my nastiest rifles that had probably gone decades without a serious cleaning. Made no real difference with the Carbine that I could discern though.

Isn't aluminum oxide powder what is in some specific bore pastes/compounds for extreme clean up, like in the case of rust or other damage? It's what's in lapping compound as well IIRC. I'd imagine the key there is how much you mix in... honestly my 1917 has a very rough bore but it shoots so well I plan to leave it alone though the idea of some kind of compound or paste did cross my mind at one point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gsp45

The last thing I would use as a "cleaner" is a mixture of Aluminum Oxide and Kroil. Aluminum Oxide is an "Abrasive" we use to "Hone" cylinders and bores. All machinist know this, and use it, as an abrasive cutting compound, continued use of this WILL make your bore bright..........at the expense of making your bore bigger! FWIW

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Sir, with all due respect you are incorrect. Aluminum oxide will not damage in any way shape or form your steel barrel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

I would only add that some copper fouling in a barrel isn't necessarily a bad thing. In fact, I would go for months, many months with my rifle barrels and they shot just the same. On a pitted barrel, the fouling actually helps smooth it out. Point being, these 30 cal barrels just don't need to be cleaned to that extent to shoot well. Some match rifles need to be cleaned between shots, some once a year. with these 30 calibers, it just isn't that important to get all excited about it. A hoppies soaked patch followed by a couple of clean ones and done.

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Dave, albeit this is correct for the most part, corrosive fouling trapped under the copper fouling will do nothing but eat on the steel of the barrel. Cleaning the barrel completely is a must.

Fellas, I only offer this information because since working in a custom barrel shop and talking to the owner about barrel care I thought I would pass that info on to my milsurps family.

Everybody knows JB bore paste. The abrasive in JB is Garnet.
When I worked at the Sunoco refinery we would cut huge holes in the sides of 1 million gallon gasoline/crude oil tanks for maintenance access. Couldn't use torches for obvious reasons. We used high pressure water @ 40 thousand psi. The water didn't do the cutting, the Garnet mixed in at the cutting face did.
Same abrasive, different application.

Bill you are completely correct on a clean bore is a must and I'd also be in agreement in the use of Aluminum Oxide and Kroil if I had a bore that had corrosive particulate trapped under some copper fouling. My point is, I wouldn't use this abrasive mix every time I cleaned my bore. In fact on a "new" barrel you will get the copper to fill in the microscopic fissures, which is "burnishing" a new barrel, but that's a whole other topic all together, and is off this topic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bill Hollinger

Dave, albeit this is correct for the most part, corrosive fouling trapped under the copper fouling will do nothing but eat on the steel of the barrel. Cleaning the barrel completely is a must.

Fellas, I only offer this information because since working in a custom barrel shop and talking to the owner about barrel care I thought I would pass that info on to my milsurps family.

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I have a question: What do you consider to be "Corrosive Fouling" and how does it get in the bore? I ask because when I received my SA 12/65 rebuild in 1983, it was all new. I shot it for almost a full year and never once used a chemical copper remover. As a matter of fact, I rarely used a brush. I would clean the bore with Hoppies and patches. The barrel was perfect and remained that way. I won five bench rest shoots with that M1 using handloads of 4064/Sierra 168 Internationals. My main concern was barrel preservation as I was taught to fear the rod and brush by Drill Instructors. I was determined to not clean it to death. I suppose I might feel different about it if I owned a barrel shop.
Thanks Bill.

Dave, did you bore scope it to know for sure it is perfect? I only ask this because I learned a valuable lessen working in a barrel production shop. I've cleaned and scrubbed and cleaned some more with Hoppe's #9 and felt it could not get any cleaner only to be embarrassed when a bore scope was put to it. The owner of the company said Hoppe's was worthless for cleaning anything but soft fouling in a barrel bore. For 40 years I've used and relied on Hoppe's and would swear by it's abilities. Boy was I ever wrong! I will only use it on cleaning the actual parts of a gun now, not the bore.

To your question, any residue left behind from the combustion of the round going off can be detrimental to the life of the barrel. also, only use one piece coated rods like Dewey brand. Your DI was correct for sure about jointed military style cleaning rods. They will destroy a muzzle in short order. I would encourage all, please don't take my word for any of this. Clean your bore, clean it as you never have before and then have it bore scoped. You will be amazed at what you see.

BTW, we might just be producing M1 rifle barrels in the future. ;) Look up Pac-Nor Barreling. Great company and great product!

Copper isn't the barrel/accuracy killer most think.
Carbon is Master of barrel death.
The longer it's left untouched, the harder it get's.
Ed