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Does anyone know which specific 30-06 cartridge (bullet weight, velocity, etc) the M1917 was designed to use? I'm currently working up some reloads for my rifle to use in various matches and would like to get reasonable correlation with the rear sight settings from 200 through 600yds.
Thanks!
gc
150 grain around 2700FPS
I don't think any specific cartridge matters now. The rifle would have used the M1 ammo originally and then still used the M2 after it was adopted...is there going to be a big difference? If you look in the back of Cartridges of the World, in the back...it has a whole section on military ammo and what powders are used. .30 uses 4895IMR for one of the loadings and you should be able to work with that...
For what it's worth, I used Federal's American Eagle (for Garand) in my Model of 1917 and it was bang on for range up to 440 yards (400m). Good quality ammo and pricey but was all I had for an informal shoot a couple of summers ago.
Ridolpho
That would be loaded to M2 spec I should think...
Thanks all for the replies. I've worked up a load using the Hornady 3031 150gr FMJ & 47.5gr IMR4895 that that appears to track pretty well with the rear sight setting through 400yds and is quite accurate. Did have to change the front sight blade to obtain elevation zero (from +15 to +30). Note wrt the 308 Hornady bullet that my Eddystone M1917 has a HS replacement barrel.
Changing the front sight isn't unusual, if you don't have ball to shoot. Glad it worked out.
Hello altogether,
which experience did you get using the M72 National Match Ammo and/or Reloads of that ammo ?
I'm thinking about make a test in a newer M1917 Enfield.
Greetings
Enfield Enforcer
The front sight have various heights installed to adjust the gun. Anything close to the WWI 150 gr loading is fine. Pretty course.
Worst case you can fill in the peep and adjust the hole up or down. Make it smaller as well and a better sight picture (up to a point). I did one I transfer around the guns. Complete fill in then test drill size from very small until a bit larger one got me the best.
Jim - you are correct. Also PPU 150 grain .30-06 is close to the M2 loading.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Yes. And having a look at the accuracy of the M72-Loads ? Alone because of the div. Production lots asked.. At 100, 300, 500-600 Yards and more.. . And also for M72-Ammo-Reloads.Quote:
Originally Posted by fjruple
Greetings Enfield Enforcer
Looks like an old steel body K-4 Weaver scope?
I have used a simuliar loading of the M72 ball using the 168 grain Matchking HP bullets. They pretty much replicate the M72 loading but just a several gains less in the bullet weight from the M72. Originally the M72 bullet was developed from an experimental long range accurate .30 caliber machinegun loading developed in WWI which was requested by the AEF. Post WWI the US Ordnance department was asked to develop an accurate round for the .30-06 for the National Matches. These bullets served as the test bed for the M72 NM .30 rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfield Enforcer
I'm not sure... Perhaps.. . A rather rare subject, according to my experience.. .Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Greetings
Enfield Enforcer
It should be marked in front of the ocular bell...the rear. I can see the "W" of weaver just behind the rear ring. Not so rare around here, I had one for years on my Remington 760 carbine. They show up regularly around here at gunshow tables.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfield Enforcer
It looks like a K- 60B. Made sometime between 1956 and 1969. Great scopes that hold their zero forever if not damaged.
Maybe...he can read it and perhaps tell us. Yes, they're old school for sure. I liked mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldfoneguy
Hello,Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
this is not my rifle. Unfortunately.. Therefore I can only guess.. In this case... :-(
Despite this have a good start in the new week !
Greetings
Enfield Enforcer
Hello fjruple,Quote:
Originally Posted by fjruple
that is really interesting. May i ask for the powder-charge of your load ? What about their accuracy in your M1917, for example at 300 und evtl. 700-800 yards ? Many thanks !
Greetings from Switzerland
If its 3/4 MOA at 100, technically its 1 1/2 at 200 and 2 1/4 at 300.
One you get out into the 600 yard area then its wind and sight picture that drives the results.
The gun will maintain that as far out as it stays super sonic but the sight limitations/sight picture come into play even with a scope.
Thanks - that sounds interesting !Quote:
Originally Posted by RC20
An 2 1/4 inch group at 600 yards means appr. 57 mm for 5 shots at appr. 600 meters.. . Thats amazing.. . Could this result reached by using an original M72 National Match-Load ?.. . Or which load was it, please ? By the way, my M 1917-Example is a Eddystone-Enfield. The Serial-Number is 1048840, has anybody an information to the quality level of this M 1917-Variant ? Especially concerning the precision by using M72-Loads :-) We know that the British Army favored Winchester-Examples for P 1914-Sniperrifles.. .
Greetings Enfield Enforcer
The question is-“For what ammunition is the M1917 sight calibrated?”
At the time the M1917 was developed from the P1913, the standard cartridge of the US Army was the Caliber .30 Ball Cartridge so I would believe that it would be safe to assume that the sight would be calibrated for this cartridge.
References to the Tables of Fire for the 30-06, the 30 M1 Ball, and the 30 M2 Ball would indicate that the difference at the usable ranges is not significantly different to the average soldier to warrant re-calibration of the rear sight. Since the M1917 was not designated as the service rifle but was declared to be “substitute standard”, I do not believe that the M1917 sight would be re-calibrated for any new cartridge. As a matter of fact, I do not believe that the M1903 rear sight was recalibrated when the 30 M1 Ball or the 30 M2 Ball ammo was introduced.
Here is an excerpt from the Field Manual for the M1917 at the time it was issued during WWI.
Imgur: The magic of the Internet
FWIW
Thats also an important factor. Thanks. I will study it a bit later exactly. What about the experiences with the M72 Ammo, concerning the sights and the accuracy, then ?.. . Somebody tested this ammo in this rifle, right ? :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosine26
No ammo expert here but, the WWI cartridge was the 150gr. cupro-nickel flatbase bullet. The M1 cartridge was the 172gr. boattail copper jacket modern bullet. The M2 cartridge was a 152gr. flatbase copper jacket bullet. We fought WWII, Korea and Viet Nam with the M2 cartridge. The M1 bullet was developed from Swiss M1911 ammunition and was developed after WWI. Only the French used a boattail round in WWI, no one else did so.
The cartridge used in the M1917 was the 1906 .30 caliber, hence .30-06. After WWI the Army developed a new round, boat tail, heavier - maybe 174? - and called it the M1 ball. I'm working from memory here, so not precise on my facts. In any case, that round proved to be too long range for the existing ranges, overshooting the safe areas. Rather than change all the ranges they decided to go back to something with the characteristics of the 1906 cartridge, 150 grain, flat back, about 2700 fps - that's M2 ball.
So the closest you can really get to the original cartridge is probably something that copies M2 ball, Prvi Partizan makes a Garand round that I use and like. I haven't shot it past 300 meters though. As previously noted, the front sights are changeable to adjust your point of impact at various ranges. Mine seems to shoot a little low, and I've considered changing the front sight blade. You can find them on ebay.
Here's a link, it's about Parker Hale sights, but if you scroll down it will show zero instructions on various Enfields, to include the P14, and references the front sight height calculations you can make.
Service and Target Rifle Sights ~ A.G. and A.J. Parker, Parker-Hale and B.S.A.
Jack D: I have read the history, whats twisted is maybe the 174 (I think that right) was good for 3000 yards.
150 grain, a mere 2400 (all theoretically) So what range did they overshoot? Most you would see would be 1000 yard range?
Enfield Enforcer- I usually reload with 45 grains of IMR 4895 or A2520 with that bullet. The M1917 Eddystone I use has a new Critiron .30-06 barrel. I am also using a Parker hale 5B with 1/4 minute clicks. I have no problem cloverleafing 5 rounds together at 100 yards. Unfortunately, long distance ranges in my area are very lacking to say the least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfield Enforcer
Cheer
--fjruple
Hello fjruple,
Thanks.
I have been"involved"in many things since this spring, only therefore i answer very late.
Okay - i see the IMR 4895-Powder is still in use. And having a look at the bullet weights, the 174 grainers are mentioned again and again.. . But not the really heavy bullets from 180 grains onwards, that is really conspicuos.. .
Greetings from the"Heidiland"
Enfield Enforcer
Quote:
Originally Posted by fjruple
Cloverleaf: a really great group at 100 metres, in that case !
And the troubles with the shooting occasions we have here too, unfortunately.. . Its always"the same song"to say it it in the"same way".. We have here in Switzerland 4 or 5 Long Range-Places, but its really difficult to get the possibility to use them.. . You must for a long time"slip around someones knees", before you can use it once.. :-((
One such place is in my country here in the South-East. This spring a group of 5 shooters was able to shoot there at a distance of 1200 metres that means ca. 1312 yards. On this tank-exercise-place.
Ironically the place is in the valley where fathers family comes from.. .
fjruple, we are fellow sufferers.. . Despites this, have all a good day ! :-)
Greetings from Grison
Quote:
Originally Posted by fjruple
Hello Browningautorifle,
to the picture with the M1917 Enfield with Scope: i cannot say which type of scope it is. I found this picture on the web a while ago. It looks well and remembers me a bit at the old M1918 US-Telescopic Rifle.. .
The M1917 Enfield is an interesting rifle when it comes to scope use.. . This caliber, this barrel length, this accuracy..
Maybe somebody else knows the answer here for sure.. ? :-)
Greetings
QUOTE=browningautorifle;447652]Maybe...he can read it and perhaps tell us. Yes, they're old school for sure. I liked mine.[/QUOTE]
From the M1917 Rifle Manual published in 1917 revised in 1918"
Imgur: The magic of the Internet
FWIW
I have always used GI M2 ball with no issues/////
I originally used 45.0grains of IMR 4895. Later switched to AA2520 as it meters better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfield Enforcer
--fjruple