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Hello Guys,
picked up my second RFI marked No. 4 T rifle this weekend. They both are within 100 digits to each other and also both have a "A 0xx T" (would the T suffix mean sniper?) serial number and date 1962. Does anyone know whether the Indians used original No. 4 actions where they scrubbed the markings, or did they manufacture them newly? And any other information on the history of those rifles, what were they used for, when did they sell over to Europe?
Thanks,
Georg
Promo: All original English or North American rifles (or parts of them). My impression from past threads on this forum is that the Indian T's were originally English or, perhaps, Longbranch T's. Your has the usual D6E Enfield examiners mark (at H & H) on the rear left of the body and so was an original "T". I'd love to have a chance to buy one of these Indian rifles, especially in this kind of condition.
Ridolpho
I have some info on A0075, A0250 and A0295. This one A0157 falls in the middle. I also have an ex-India sniper, a No. 4 MK. I* (T) made by Long Branch. Luckily it retained its original serial number 68L32xx on both body and bolt. The markings on the left side of the body are faint due to sandblasting (in Indian service presumably) but legible. Sadly mine came with mismatched scope and bracket.
Strangely, Promos rifle is marked as a No4 Mk1/2 but impossibly has a Mk1 fore-end that will not (?) fit without modifications to the rear!
There are a whole lot of ex Indian Army No4T's with telescopes in and around this serial number batch including a VERY close older brother owned by someone on this forum
If this bracket is correct then the original rifle number is still visible. But I doubt whether it is the original bracket as it left H&H........
Ridolopho, thanks for the information on the manufacturer! I might somewhen part with either of my two rifles, but I had not exported rifles to Canada before (I'm located in Europe). My other Indian rifle is "A 0228 T". Aside of those two I also own a No. 4 T which has the Indian reinforcement-screw. Why did they not scrub the original markings from this rifle and added the "new ones"? Was this because the rifle was not updated to "Mk. 1/2" specifications?
Promo: Already well beyond my limited knowledge but- as Mr. Laidler points out, the rifle in this post does not appear to be in Mk 1/2 configuration.
Ridolpho
They clearly DID scrub the original markings and then added their usual Mk1/2 markings. It MIGHT be a Mk1/2 underneath the wood somehow but you'll have to take it off to find out
I'm restoring one for a customer "as we speak". Serial number 1173, also marked RFI 1962. It's in pretty good condition and converted from an original H&H "T".
I have a Indian T, BSA manufacture. Will have to dig it out of the safe to check the serial no. Mine is pretty clean, apparently used by the police thus not getting the normal beating if used by the army. I bought the gun, not the story.
Hey Peter, being not that of an Enfield nut: how do I tell if it's a Mk.1 or a Mk.1/2? What was changed in this process?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
The 1/2 has the trigger hung on the body, not on the trigger guard. The forend is the Mk.2 type with the reinforcing bolt and nut instead of the tie plate. The standard Mk.1 forend won't fit unless modified as many were. I'd say yours is still in Mk.1 guise.
Peter, Brian, Lee Enfield et al, correct me if needs be, but my observations of these Indian 4T's suggest that;
1. They are all built on original British or Canadian T's.
2. They are divided into two groups: those that remain in original No4 Mk1 (or less often Mk1*) T trim, & those that have been converted to Mk1/2 trim.
3. The former group retain their original wartime markings, though often augmented by Indian stencilling on the woodwork, & very often a poorly hand stamped 'No4 Mk1' marked onto the body side wall, in front of the 'T'. A few rifles seem to have escaped this over marking, & I have a couple which I kept for exactly this reason.
4. The latter seem to have been linished of original markings (though not always totally so) by the Indians, most probably at the same time that they were converted to Mk1/2 trigger arrangement. At this time they were renumbered as alluded to above, with a serial number commencing with a letter 'A' & finishing with a letter 'T'. They were also marked by RFI on the right side of the butt socket (SMLE style), & with a date - I have only ever seen 1962 & 1963, though other dates may exist.
5. The original Mk1 rifles retain their original serial numbers.
6. All rifles that I have seen, regardless of whether Mk1 or Mk1/2, have been fitted with the ubiquitous 'Ishy screw'.
There may well be exceptions to the above, but these observations come from examining various Mk1 T rifles, & about 50 Mk1/2 T's at Charnwood Ordnance, from a large batch they had in the 1990's. Amongst them were included Trials & Long Branch rifles - all linished clean!
Yep Rog, That pretty much nails it.
I know this is an old thread, but it is relevant to my No 4T I just purchased. It has all the markings of an RFI and refurbished in 1962. It has a no 32 Mk 3 scope fitted. The serial number is A0152T. I wonder if anyone has any backround to the the rifle? I have attached a few pictures as reference.
The woodwork looks to be near enough new & is light beech, lacking the 'Ishy screw'. It's only an opinion, but I'd suggest it has probably been re-wooded since it left Indian service.
Looks like the numbers have been deleted and re-engraved on the receiver, struck on the socket. Looks like the whole rifle went through the park tank too after that...so you think that was factory?
Looks like the telescope has had a quick blow job with a tin of Halfords matt black paint too. The ex Indian rifles generally seem to be ok providing that the bolts fit OK. Mind you, some bolts and bodies I've seen, it's like throwing a sausage down the high street.
It looks like a fairly typical Indian refurb to me, apart from the wood, & the fact that it probably originally left Indian service covered in the ubiquitous black paint that Peter just alluded to, & this looks to have been cleaned off leaving the underlying (probably) Indian blue job. That also reinforces why I think it may have been 'tickled' a bit after leaving service. It's a pretty rifle, nonetheless.
Any pics of pad side without the scope and one of the left hand butt socket....
Here are some additional pictures including the scope mount pads. I hope they can provide more information about my rifle.Attachment 86189
Thanks all for information so far. I hope the additional pictures can provide more clues.
It was originally a BSA Shirley rifle (no great surprises about that I suppose, as most were). The rear sight may well have been swapped at some point, but if it is original, it would point to a BSA 43 rifle; one of the ones fitted with a replacement Mk1 rear sight at H&H, as some rifles arrived equipped with battle sights. IIRC MkVII unearthed some documentation that confirmed that a quantity of Savage made Mk1 sights were supplied as replacements, & these are seen periodically, usually, in my experience, on 43 dated rifles. (But on the other hand it could just be there by chance, due to passing through ordnance a few times!).
Thanks Roger that's very useful information. I am now trying to figure out how to focus the scope as the graticle is slightly out of focus for my eye.
It's been through the bead blaster locally I'd say looking at the edge of the backsight and blued . Telescopes are not focussed for an individual but for PV (that's perfect vision) on an optical screen. If that's the case here maybe you need specs.
I do have specs I am long sighted so distance is no problem. I don't have an issue with out of focus reticles when I use my Scoped K98, Mosin Nagant and Springfield rifles. I came across your old threads describing how to adjust the focus on the graticle on a No 32 scope, which looked quite daunting, but possible?
For what its worth, the Savage Mark 1 micrometer rear sights and the L flip rear sight were made by Lyman Gun Sight Company. Pictures of these sights are shown in WWII Lyman advertising.