What happened to P14 rifles made in US for Britain?

Hi ... am a new member and an advanced collector of milsup weapons. Live in Virginia, retired Federal Govt officer. Seeking HELP from knowledgeable P14 experts.

I own a remarkable .303 P14 rifle, made by Winchester, in absolutely perfect condition. I bought it from a well-known dealer, who states it (and several other similar P14 rifles) came from the REMINGTON collection. I understand that 1.2 million P14s were made by all 3 US manufactures for Britain - before all production was shifted to the Model 1917 "Enfields."

I an trying to find out what happened to all the .303's shipped to the British. Does anyone know ? Pls email me at hphart@hughes.net, or respond on MilSurps. (problem with latter is I am not sure I can find a posted response.) Very grateful for assistance.

Here is a great historical write up I found on the web on an earlier project. The author summarizes the works of several books on the subject. The info you seek is towards the end of part 3.
http://www.vgca.net/education/TheUKP...2014-09-17.pdf

Major Reynolds of the 1960 Enfield book wrote that a large number of the cord worn and damaged rifles from home guard/RAF anti-aircraft/ training commands use were dumped at sea. This was in an article he published in the American rifleman circa late 1960s. He does not give a figure but for some reason the figure 300~400,000 dumped at sea seemed to be circulation when I was a young chap first interested in to topic, in the early 1980s. The figure was supposed to be about 1/2 of the rifles left in stock after all arms sent overseas prior to 1958. Collectors I spoke to at the time (circa 1981 to 1982) were fairly sure the figures dumped were much larger, as fairly few P14 rifles came over tot he US of A in the 1958 to 1968 time period, and some of them came out of the Spanish 1959~1960 sale. Certainly P14 rifles are kind of rare, you see something like 4 SMLE rifles for every P14 rifle.

The only confirmation I have of dumping seem of this was an comment in the book deadly business, which states that after the first larger order for ~900,000 Enfields, Sam Cummings got a call from the MOD saying they had 300,000 obsolete Enfields readied for dumping at sea, which had already had the wooden cases drilled which he could have on the same terms as the previous 900,000 (of which Interams got between 60 and 75 percent, the other rifles being bought by Parker Hale).

Now I have no idea if these Enfield were all P14 rifles, but the evidence they were dumping them at seas is hard to argue against.

As far as who got them prior to 1958 the following armies were known to have them:

Greece : small numbers, some imported into US of A in late 1980s by century arms.
Portugal: small numbers, used in GOA by customs police, lost to India in 1961
Spain: small numbers supplied by Russia during civil war, almost all in very poor condition. What remained sold to Interarms in 1959~1960.
Estonia ~40,000, supplied by UK in 1919/1921, lost to Russian in 1940, most likely lost in the 1941 east front disaster.
Lithuania same as above, figures I forget
Ukraine: supplied to whites in 1920 time frame, lost to Russia, small numbers exported to Spain in 1936
Singapore: Some were on hand in Feb 1942, as at the battle box museum there is rusted up example of one that was found on the site. At that time the P14 was the issue rifle to anti-aircraft artillery.

India: supposed to have been supplied 100,000 directly from Remington in 1917. Based on the rifles that have come out of India, they were likely from the Baldwin works in Chester, not out of Ilion (ERA marked). Some sold to Springfield sporters in the late 1980/1990s in India police sales.
Pakistan: some of the India rifles ended up in Pakistan post 1947. Some imported by Century arms in the early 1990s
Afghanistan: some of the Paki rifles ended up there and have been seized in the war on terror

South Africa: Some were on issue for home defense in WWII. South Africans even made a bayonet for it. no idea what happened to them.

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

300~400,000 dumped at sea

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Kind of sad really...that's a lot.

Pictures of your rifle would be highly appreciated. Is the stock still marked IW in a circle?

The thing that sounds strange to me is that a WINCHESTER made rifle would be in the REMINGTON collection. Since they produced these rifles themselves, wouldn't they rather keep their own rifle than to keep one from a competitor?

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

they were likely from the Baldwin works in Chester,

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This is a misconception. Baldwin didn't build rifles. Remington Arms of Delaware did at it's Eddystone PA plant which was built by Baldwin on Baldwin property through a corporate deal. The buildings where built in such a way that after rifle production ceased the buildings could be turned over to Baldwin for the production of Locomotives. A few still stand today.
Sorry to get nit picky..:cheers:

I have a Remington made P14 built mid 1916 and refurbished to the Weedon specifications in early WWII, it's not import marked meaning it has been in the US prior to 1968. That narrows down the location of 2 of them anyway.

I recently purchased a Winchester MkI* which escaped Weedon alteration and still has it's volley sights. The previous owner for some reason polished the lower band, trigger guard, bottom magazine plate and sling swivels to white, but other than that it's in great shape, with the bore gauging at .3035. (Excuse the sling - since fitted correctly!)

A large number in the UK were eventually converted to 762 NATO calibre as target rifles, but these are now unpopular and very low price as a result, compared to original military specification examples.

Regards

Mikehttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...b8462fc4-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...452e006f-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...30ad939f-1.jpg

I have a E.R.A. P14, in U.K. deactivated form, and it is in lovely un-messed condition with original woodwork. I am not able to post pictures of it at the moment but may be able to do so at some point in the future if I ever get to grips with the use of a digital camera.

I did not realize that Eddystone was its own separate bough. I thought it was a part of Chester. very interesting

Kind of makes you wonder that the rifle that was supposed to replace the SMLE got shafted so bad. I have occasionally thought the British may have persevered with the 7mm version once WW1 was over, but they were probably so up to their ears in debt it may not have been feasible. From what I've gathered, the Lee Enfield proved a more reliable design in the mud of flanders and sands of Palestine, and went on to fight in future wars, even if deemed "obsolete" after the second Boer War in 1902.
I own 2 P14's and two M17's, and would not part with them; makes you want to cry into your beer thinking of them rusting at the bottom of the ocean. :ugh:

Not only the P14 rifles. The UK had 75,000 Ross MK III rifles sent to them from Canada in 1940. It would appear all of them were dumped at sea as well, after use by the Home guard, some artillery schools and such. In so far as I can tell from looking at golden state arm ads and Interarms ads, none were sold here in the US, which leaves the sea dumping as the most likely final destination.

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

It would appear all of them were dumped at sea as well, after use by the Home guard, some artillery schools and such.

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We have had Home Guard marked Ross rifles appear for sale in Canada, I haven't researched them beyond what the sale advert said but appears that some may have survived.

My Ross sporter for example is market to a British marine unit and survived.

The Dutch dumped over 250,000 Kar98k's into the North Sea in the early 190's. Apparently they were dumped in order to make space at the storage site. The Base Commander ordered them dumped without notifying his superiors. The loss was discovered by an inspection team doing routine site inspections. It was not approved and there was nothing anyone could do.

Canadian Militia guns were sold in both Canada and the US, most of them sported in the early 1950s to middle 1950s. Not all the rosses were sent to the UK, only around 75,000 out of around 118,000 that the Canadians had in 1940. Working from memory here, I would have to check my reference books to be sure, old age and all that. But Canada retained a larger number of MK II (forget number of stars) and MKIII rifles at least 42,000.

I may be wrong on this as I am not a Ross expert, but I seem to recall the UK Naval marked Ross rifles were for the most part saved because they were sold as part of ships stores and when ships were sold post war they went with them. I seem to recall that some Chilean ross rifles were imported in the late 1950s so marked.

That said when I went through all of the sales circulars some years ago trying to figure out what century, Golden state and Interarms brought in, there was a noticeable lack of Ross rifles from the UK. The other partner in that equation, Parker Hale shows no ads in that period for Ross rifles and they were Golden state arms UK agent. Golden state shows some ads but they seem to have been sourced directly from Canada.

There were Ross rifles imported from Spain, which were MK IIIB rifles (interarms imports 1959/1960)
There were MK I/MKII/MKIII variants that came in via (what was to become) century prior to the big UK sales in the 1958 and after.

The very first sales from interarms in the mid to late 1950s with MKV, MKIV and even some CLLE rifles seem to lack much in the way of Ross rifles.

Now in the US today the most common Ross we see is the MK II, from the 1917 state of New York import (taken over by US government). Around 20,000 were imported, of which most were sold to the NRA members post 1919. Around 2000 to 3000 MK IIIB rifles were imported from Spain. Rare but you see them. The 75,000 MKIII rifles (ross rear sight) from the UK are noticeable missing, I have never seen but one or two of them in my entire life. That is why I conclude they were dumped at sea.

Could at least some of the Ross rifles have been sent to Russia around the mid to late war period from the U.K., rather than be dumped at sea, or are there records available that disprove this theory?

Those are the MK IIB rifles, sold to the UK in WWI after Canada's adoption of the SMLE.

sent to the Baltic republics, the Ukraine and Armenia in 1919 to 1921. eventually captured by the Soviet Union between 1921~23 and the fall fo the Baltic republics in 1940.

The only ones of the MK IIIB rifles to come back were the ones sent by the Soviet Union to Spain in 1936.

Small numbers used by the Soviet Union for running bore international competition in the 1950s and 1960s.

Lots of knowledge and history in this thread. I'm enjoying it.
Thanks for the education!

Here's an unusual Ross that survived disposal. It's a British Royal Marine issued Mk III Ross. Cal. 303 British. The letters “PLY” are stamped on the barrel knox in front of the receiver which represents the Royal Marine Naval yard Depot in Plymouth, England. Along with the British added stamped serial number #5113 on the receiver. And the letters “CRB”, are stamped on the bolt handle representing the Crombie Royal Marine Depot and the British added serial number #3663. There is also a number #624 stamped in the wood on the underside of the forearm near the front band. Possibly a rifle rack or ship number.
The rifle still retains its original Ross Canadian serial number of #871 which is still visible on the butt stock cartouche with a 1916 date. There are no import stamps.
The rifle and bore are in excellent condition. The front sight cover is missing and may have been removed by the depot as un-necessary for ship board.
Almost all of these British Marine rifles were sold off to commercial companies in England who converted them to sporters by cutting the stocks and barrels back and it’s very rare to find one that escaped this alteration and is still full length. Ray

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I have a Mk.III marked to the Home Guard with a rack number of 43. I imported it out of Canada many years ago. The serial number HG 12610 is stamped on the left rear of the barrel on the breech end. It's one of the most accurate service rifles I've ever had.

rayg, is the first picture in your post 19 of the sinking German destroyer taken at Scarp-a-Flow during the scuttling of the German fleet? I noticed the picture is dated as 1919.

Here you are Flying10uk hope this assists from Wikipedia ~ The fleet is scuttled

Around 10:00 a.m. on 21 June 1919, von Reuter sent a flag signal ordering the fleet to stand by for the signal to scuttle. At about 11:20 the flag signal was sent: "To all Commanding Officers and the Leader of the Torpedo Boats. Paragraph Eleven of to-day's date. Acknowledge. Chief of the Interned Squadron."[22] The signal was repeated by semaphore and searchlights.[23] Scuttling began immediately: seacocks and flood valves were opened and internal water pipes smashed.[24] Portholes had already been loosened, watertight doors and condenser covers left open, and in some ships holes had been bored through bulkheads, all to facilitate the spread of water once scuttling began.[24] One German ship commander recorded that prior to 21 June, seacocks had been set on a hair turning and heavily lubricated, while large hammers had been placed besides valves.[25]

There was no noticeable effect until noon, when Friedrich der Grosse began to list heavily to starboard and all the ships hoisted the Imperial German Ensign at their mainmasts. The crews then began to abandon ship.[26] The British naval forces left at Scapa Flow comprised three destroyers, one of which was under repair, seven trawlers and a number of drifters.[22][23] Fremantle started receiving news of the scuttling at 12:20 and cancelled his squadron's exercise at 12:35, steaming at full speed back to Scapa Flow. He and a division of ships arrived at 14:30 in time to see only the large ships still afloat. He had radioed ahead to order all available craft to prevent the German ships sinking or beach them.[27] The last German ship to sink was the battlecruiser Hindenburg at 17:00,[23] by which time fifteen capital ships were sunk, and only Baden survived. Four light cruisers and thirty-two destroyers were sunk. Nine Germans were shot and killed and about sixteen wounded aboard their lifeboats rowing towards land.[28]

During the afternoon, 1,774 Germans were picked up and transported by battleships of the First Battle Squadron to Invergordon.[29] Fremantle had sent out a general order declaring that the Germans were to be treated as prisoners-of-war for having broken the armistice and they were destined for the prisoner-of-war camps at Nigg. Von Reuter and a number of his officers were brought onto the quarterdeck of HMS Revenge, where Fremantle – through an interpreter – denounced their actions as dishonourable while von Reuter and his men looked on "with expressionless faces."[30] Admiral Fremantle subsequently remarked privately, "I could not resist feeling some sympathy for von Reuter, who had preserved his dignity when placed against his will in a highly unpleasant and invidious position

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

rayg, is the first picture in your post 19 of the sinking German destroyer taken at Scarp-a-Flow during the scuttling of the German fleet? I noticed the picture is dated as 1919.

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Not sure, but if I remember correctly, I think it was, Ray

There was a recent documentary about the Naval anchorage at Scapa Flow including the scuttling of the German fleet. Some of the wreckage is still there.

I believe that a few of the smaller German vessels are still at Scapa Flow but the majority if not all of the larger vessels were salvaged between the wars. Interestingly, I have heard it suggested that a significant number of the salvaged vessels were sold back to Germany as scrap metal in the years before WW2.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

majority if not all of the larger vessels were salvaged

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That would make perfect sense. Looking back it would have made more sense again to have grounded them all and broken them up at the time. Seemed more like the act of an angry child to smash them all and send them to the bottom. Refined steel is refined steel...no matter how cheap it was then. Price is relative...

Something else that some-one once told me about the few remaining German vessels at Scapa Flow is that they are a source of pre-nuclear age metals of which small quantities are required. I don't know if there is any truth in this but if I remember correctly I was told that it was used in test equipment for nuclear/radiation testing equipment and it had to be material that hadn't been exposed to the atmosphere since the invention of the atomic bomb. Perhaps some-one with more knowledge than myself could please either confirm or discount this, thanks.

Great post on a great rifle. A P14 was not going to be found but I did get a P17. This post had great details and helped confirm or clarify some of the sketchy details I have picked up. I have gotten in a few debates about this rifle being so widely used in WWI by the US Dough Boys. The Sargent York connection was again referenced on the first link. The additional bonus of the scuttling of German ships was a nice surprise.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

that they are a source of pre-nuclear age metals of which small quantities are required.

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I can't remember where but I heard that too. You mentioning it brought it up from the memory banks.
From Wiki
Low-background steel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Originally Posted by Cheese Noodles

I have gotten in a few debates about this rifle being so widely used in WWI by the US Dough Boys.

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Yes, been there too. They look at you like you have two heads.

I have a P17 bayonet without the 2 grooves on the grips. Does any-one else also have an example without the grooved grips? Is this unusual or is it perhaps because the grips were replaced at some point? P14 and P17 bayonets always seem to have 2 grooves on the grips which is said to be to avoid confusion with the 1907 bayonet.

I will post some pictures of it on a new thread in the bayonet forum.

Those grips have been replaced with 1907 grip scales.