P.14 Brass Unit Plate?

Greetings all. I've recently come into posssession of pretty run-of-the-mill ERA P.14. The volley sight disc is present on the fore stock, but the pointer and the folding peep are long gone. Where I am at a loss is regarding the brass plate spanning the brass stock disc. As you can see from the pic, it's clearly marked with some sort of designation and what I believe to be a rack number. My research has not turned up any definitive information, so I'm turning to the experts for this one. If anyone knows positively what the brass plate denotes, I'd love to hear from you. Thanks in advance.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN1043-1.jpg

I've once been told it originates from the French Foreign Legion, but can't bring any proofs for this. I have one or two P.14 too with this plate.

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Originally Posted by Promo

I've once been told it originates from the French Foreign Legion, but can't bring any proofs for this. I have one or two P.14 too with this plate.

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The gentleman from whom I purchased the rifle claims that it designates the Indonesian military. I can't say yea or nay, but I'm hoping someone knows for sure.

I believe those brass lozenge type marking plates were Portugese.

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Originally Posted by lawrence_n

The gentleman from whom I purchased the rifle claims that it designates the Indonesian military. I can't say yea or nay, but I'm hoping someone knows for sure.

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In Indonesian, SAU is the abbreviation for Senapan Angkatan Udara (Rifle for Airforce). It would fit with the previous owners claim. Just my 2c and some 5 mins of google searches.

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Originally Posted by Kiwi

In Indonesian, SAU is the abbreviation for Senapan Angkatan Udara (Rifle for Airforce). It would fit with the previous owners claim. Just my 2c and some 5 mins of google searches.

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I just wasn't looking in the right place (obviously). Thanks for the info. Any idea of the CIE and HSN?

Another thread here suggests something Dutch .... https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=14133

It would be interesting to hear as to what is on the round butt disc below, please?

I think these SAU-CIE rifles were used by the French S.A.S. in Algiers. And those aren't the S.A.S. forces you are thinking about right now.

I'm talking about the "Képis Bleus" a.k.a. the "Sections Administratives Spécialisées" and the "Sections Adminstratives Urbaines" who operated in Algiers from 1955 until 1962.

http://archives.ecpad.fr/kepi-bleu-12/

http://archives.ecpad.fr/kepi-bleu-22/

They had their own Algerian security forces or "compagnies militaires" the "moghaznis". They were mostly armed with al sorts of WW2 surplus weapons. I think these SAU-CIE P14 rifles were used by the S.A.U. moghaznis.

The French also armed other pro-French Algerian security forces like the "Harkas", "Groupes Mobiles de Sécurité" and the "Groupes d' Auto Défense". Most of them were veterans who fought for France during WW2.

Attachment 74365Attachment 74366Attachment 74367Attachment 74368

Dutch East Indies: SAU CIE stands for Saupers Companie ( Sappers Company, ie, Engineers)
(The Dutch language has many Military Terms of either French or German Origin.)
I have a M95 Dutch Carbine with the same Marking.

The use of the horizontal tag is typical of KNIL Unit tags, and carried over into Indonesian Use ( they didn't bother to remove them after Independence, so when surplussed, they still has the Dutch ID markings). Indon Police Districts are usually "Branded" into the Butt.

Doc AV

Doc,

do you have source for this information?

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Originally Posted by DocAV

SAU CIE stands for Saupers Companie

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I can back up part of this as Companie is Company in French. That part was clear without typing anything into Google. The rest makes sense. More than the preceeding...

I spent some time looking out for a likely P14 here in Mauserland - and again and again these things turned up. After a couple of years, I gave up - whether French or Dutch, every one I saw was worn out, and would have been a waste of time as a shooter.

6721 Dutch sappers in the East indies? That would seem to be far too many - I tend to the French theory.

"Saupers Companie" isn't correct Dutch, that should say "Sapeurs Compagnie". I've heard and read every possible explanation. Dutch KNIL, Belgian Colonial, Danish, French Foreign Legion...

I'm not saying that my French SAU theory is correct, it's just a theory as I have clearly stated. But the French Sections Adminstratives Urbaines in Algeria is the only (para)military unit that uses the SAU abreviation.

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Originally Posted by lawrence_n

Greetings all. I've recently come into posssession of pretty run-of-the-mill ERA P.14. The volley sight disc is present on the fore stock, but the pointer and the folding peep are long gone. Where I am at a loss is regarding the brass plate spanning the brass stock disc. As you can see from the pic, it's clearly marked with some sort of designation and what I believe to be a rack number. My research has not turned up any definitive information, so I'm turning to the experts for this one. If anyone knows positively what the brass plate denotes, I'd love to hear from you. Thanks in advance.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN1043-1.jpg

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Thanks to all of you for your input, but when I sort this all out I seem to get a lot of "probables". Now, to add to the mix, a pretty knowledgeable guy at a local gun show states pretty definitively that it's Quebec Home Guard. So, round and round she goes again!

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Originally Posted by lawrence_n

Quebec Home Guard.

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We did use them for home guard after all. That's what they were relegated to for WW2.

The P14 was little used in Canada , a recent publication gives the number as 85 compared to c100,000 M17s. These P14s with ID strip appeared on the surplus market at the same time as Indonesian SMLEs, East indies pattern Dutch Mannlichers and M1941 Johnsons. I believe they are Dutch East Indies/ Indonesian.

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Originally Posted by green

The P14 was little used in Canada

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As a matter of fact my father in law didn't use a P14 but an M1917...I guess you're right. There were some issued to PCMR though, and M1917sn Ross, Winchesters, Savages... I'd still think there would have been some around for other uses though.

Well, at least one P.14 was Canadian used with the W&S scope during WWII ;)

For those still looking for a solution to these tags I can confirm they are Indonesian. S.A.U. stands for Staf TNI-Angkatan Udara or Air Force Staff which was previously described by some posters on here. I believe CIE stands for Corps Intendans which in English is Quartermaster Corps. HSN will most likely be the unit, I haven’t found that one out yet but I am aware the Indonesian military love acronyms (they currently have over 20,000 of them in use). The brass tags are of KNIL origin, a throwback to Dutch colonial days, logic says the new independent country carried on the same method of marking that they previously utilised.

There is a Rheinmetall G3 from 1959-61 sold to Indonesia and importantly marked SAU-CIE that was used by Indonesian paratroops in fighting on Papua New Guinea, where it was captured by the Papua Volunteer Corps in the early 1960’s and ultimately handed over to the Dutch military, from whence it found its way into the Dutch Military Museum. There is a Forgotten Weapons article on it. The acronyms have been published in a book on modern Indonesian military usage https://library.fes.de/pdf-files/bue...sien/06992.pdf