If anyone is after an early mk1 Bren mag, I have one for sale in good condition for £100+ postage.
PM for details.
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If anyone is after an early mk1 Bren mag, I have one for sale in good condition for £100+ postage.
PM for details.
I am not interested in purchasing it but would be interested in seeing a couple of pictures of it, please, if possible.
I am unable to post pics however if you PM your email address I can send pics that way.
I'm curious -
What is it about this Bren mag that makes it so valuable???
I can buy Bren mags here in the US for closer to 1/3 of what you're asking.
Sarge
The Mk1 mag was the original mag, it was later modified to 1* and new mags manufactured as MkII and beyond. These Mk1 mags are now scarce. The BGS estimated there was only a small number in existence but they are turning up all the time. I'd now estimate there to be at least 100. I have at least 10 and I know many collectors have similar amounts.
I've had three pass through my hands and currently have two. Two of them were found within about 10 minutes of each other on different stalls at the War & Peace Show some years back. They cost £3, £5 and £15 - but that was just 'knowing what the dealer didn't' luck. Strangely, all three had olive green paint on them.
Could the Mk1 mags have "recently" come out of storage in Greece? That source did yield significant numbers of MK1 combination tools a while back of which I have 2.
The ones I picked up from war n peace show, over the last couple of years...came out of Ireland ( along with the 6 mag/reloading tool boxes)
Have replied to your email as requested.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
The magazine loading tools were another one of those things that really did, well........., nothing. Even loading magazines was a bit hit and miss! The problem, according to the official papers at the small arms school was that there were Two TYPES, supposedly to cater for the two types of either boxed/loose or bandlier ammunition issued. To make it all work, the uit would have BOTH sorts of mag loaders in equal measure. That's because the unit didn't know whether the ammo would come in bandoliers or loose in boxes. You could bet that if you had a loose/trough type mag loaders you'd get your ammo in chargers. Charger Bren mag loaders, you'd get ammo in loose form. And unless you had a stout table of lorry tailboard handy, where did you clamp the (expensive) loaders? Ity couldn't even be successfully clamped onto the Bren chest! It was quickly learned that if you just grabbed a handful of ammo, you could hand-load a magazine as quickly as you could with the jamb prone machines.
Loaders were soon abandoned and hand loading the magazines was soon incorporated into the TOET's (training tests)........... and guess what.........? Yep, the timings were 'on average' just as quick as using the machines. They were never officially withdrawn so far as I could tell but were just sent into obsolescence.....
But even today, the last vestiges of the magazine loading tools is visible in the early Bren chests. Look into the left hand side where the cross-piece block lifts out. That recess on the underside and the half-moon recess in the rear of the chest is where one of the magazine loaders could be clamped.
There......., another useless bit of Bren info that you probably already knew!
Nope. And long may your 'useless' bits of info continue. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Maybe someone who's computer literate could photograph the mag loading tool in the box and highlight the bits/recesses I mention.
I recently managed to obtain a MK2 (aluminium) Bren mag loader from a dealer in Bulgaria; quite how it got there I've no idea. Although I now have a digital camera, as yet, I haven't worked out how to use it and so unfortunately I am unable to help with pictures at the moment. Was the recess intended for the MK1 loader as it doesn't appear to be of much benefit to fitting the Mk2 in the chest?
Are you SURE its actually a real BREN mag loader??
There have been a lot, recently, of Bulgarian ZB-39 8x56R cartridge mag loaders up for sale on the usual internet sites.....they look very close via cursory inspection.
They aren't interchangeable unfortunately.......
-TomH
CHEST, Bren, .303” MG Mk1 and Mk1*. Part number C1/BE 6231. DD(E) 1822 2-10-36 Introduced with the gun in August 1938, every Bren machine gun came from Ordnance Stores in a chest together with the CES. The Mk1* chest was modified under the authority of LoC B-3618 in June 1940. The modification consisted of a slight alteration to the internal fittings of the chest in order to accommodate the Mk2 hopper type magazine filler in place of the Mk1 charger loading type. As the modification is completed by Armourers locally, the chest becomes known as the Mk1* pattern.
So you probably have an unmodified Mk1 chest. But be advised that your mag filler might not be a UK variant designed to fit in the chest. Ours were cast by QUALCAST in Birmingham, Birmaloy and their mark is cast into the housing. Cast by them but finished by Berridge. If my memory serves me right, the basic squad test for mag filling by hand was 40 seconds. Time to clear a jammed up mag loader, 5 minutes!
Incidentally, the chest was designed to take the rifle and bayonet of the No2 of the gun team while he was acting in that role. Yet another useless bit of Bren info you all probably knew....
You beat me to it Tom...... Well put. But I'm sure one would look good in the chest. Like a fake Omega - until you need to tell the time
Easiest way to tell is if it has a number I.e "No11234", the ZB39 loaders had numbers that matched the gun. The British Mk2 was devoid of a serial number.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
Yes Brit plumber, it has a number "No11234" as you suggest, so is it a ZB39 loader then??? A standard British .303 mag fits onto it ok but as it is only to go with a deac Bren I haven't actually tried using it. One of the problems I found was obtaining any information on them even trying to get hold of pictures is no easy task.
For a deact display, ZB-39 loader?......probably actually a MUCH better choice as they are markedly cheaper and easier to acquire......
From a few inches away, they are very, very close in appearance........unless you're having a show with people from this board over, I seriously doubt anyone would ever notice!! Run with it......
Note also......not to send you running out again on a wild goose chase.....buy you're not quite done with the mag loader selections if you want to collect the whole set. There is also a BREn mag loader that rather than load from loose rounds into the inserted magazine, loaded the mags from inserted Enfield rifle stripper clips. They are probably even harder to locate alive and above ground now....
Jerry Prasser here has had one he's been trying to unload for ever:
Bren mag loader with magazine very rare : Class 3 Parts Accessories at GunBroker.com
This one. as you can see, is WELL oxidized......nothing that couldn't be redone. He's been asking stupid money for it for a long time which is why it hasn't sold. If anyone "over the pond" wants this one, I'd be happy to pluck it from him and send it.......unless there is an issue getting into the UK now?
-TomH
It was about £120 or so that I paid for the loader. In picture 7 the ali casting looks as if it's been broken then glued? back together again?
OK, I give up - Exactly WHAT is the difference between the Mk I & Mk I* mags? I've got at least 10 or 12 mags for my Mk I but I have No idea what the difference is that you are talking about!
How about a photo or something??? Maby I've got a gold mine in mags????????????
Sarge
The MK1 mag did not have what is known as an auxiliary spring attached to the front inside face of the mag but the MK1* and onwards did. These MK1 mags are rare and expensive when they do turn up and I have never seen an example in the flesh. The member who posted post 1 has since emailed me some pictures, very kindly, but I assume doesn't wish them to be made public which I will respect.
Here's my most recent one which I 'logged' on here in July 2014:
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=49498
I have no problem with the pics being made public, I'm just useless with computers and can't upload them!Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
I'm not much better with computers but will have a go if I have a chance; please don't hold your breath.
Here are the photos:
Unfortunately I believe there are some fake Mk1 mags out there. By fake, I mean mags that have been converted back to mk1. So far they all appear to use ZB39 mag covers. So check markings carefully if it's costing an arm and a leg. If it's in a box of hundreds and it's only a fiver, chances are it's genuine!
What markings would we expect to see if a ZB39 cover was used to produce a "fake" MK1 mag then Brit plumber, please? If we assume that the original ZB39 markings on the cover haven't been changed.
There are no markings on the ZB39 mag covers I have.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...39cover1-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...39cover2-1.jpg
That's the give away, no markings and a very new deep blue finish. You can get a ZB39 mag for a tenner, a Enfield mag for a fiver, a little welding and hay presto, fake Mk1.
I think that it's worth saying that blitzkrieg did mention, in his e-mail to me, that the MK1 Bren mag was only made by enfield and so we should only expect to see Enfield markings on a genuine MK1 mag.
All mine, I have 6 have two Enfield stamps, one on the mag housing and one on the mag cover, as well as random other production stamps.
I have seen it suggested (on a well known U.K. dealer's website) that the E.U. is looking into the possibilities of introducing "restrictions" on the sale/transfer of weapon magazines within the European Union. I don't know any further details and exactly what is meant by "restrictions" is any-ones guess; does it mean ban???
Let's see if they will restrict the sales of Wagons and spares after the latest terrorist attacks. When will they learn that restrictions and laws only apply to those who chose to follow them.
Thanks kev G for posting the pics of some of the Mk1 floor plates in my collection.
I asked Kev G to post the pics so that collecters can see it was not only ENFIELD that manufactured Mk1 floor plates, although i have not seen the Mk1 mag bodies manufactured other than ENFIELD, and also ZB produced .303 Mk1 mags for the IRISH contract and the IRAQ contract. The AUSTIN MOTOR CO Mk1 plate is the only one i have seen so far.
Fascinating, I had never heard of BSA or Austin floor plates, thanks for sharing!
Did BSA and or Austin make the MK1 mag casing then as they made the floor plate? It would seem logical that they would?
BSA got large chunks of the production contract for the Bren because the as-was Major Shepherd (the S in STEN) had left the Army in 1938 and gone to work at BSA in order to help develop the .303" Browning for the RAF. He got BSA a lot of the new Bren work. When our 'local misunderstanding' with Germany broke out in Sept '39, Major Shepherd was called up again and went back to the Design Office at Enfield. Happy that he had fortuitously spread the Bren work load out a bit and all of the Colt Browning work. But his real claim to fame came with his next project.........................
Not a lot of people know that..........
I have yet to see any MK1 mag bodies made by B.S.A. or AUSTIN, as you mentioned FLYING10 it would seem logical that if they have obviously tooled up to make the MK1 bottom plate to the relevant D.D.E. They would have produced the MK1 mag bodies, unless the change in drawing spec's affected the mag body first. I guess its a case of keep looking, you never know.
I realise that with Bren mags you can find pretty much any combination of parts but am I correct in thinking that "officially" the MK1 floor plate was only ever fitted to the MK1 casing? The MK1* floor plate with indents/dimples found it's way "officially" onto any of the MKs of mag casing?
Flow chart of magazine configurations for the Bren
Mk1 Mk1* Mk1**(2) Mk2(2) Mk2* Mk3(1)
Case, Mk1 x
or
Case, Mk2 x x x x x
containing
Auxiliary spring x x x x x
Guide, platform x x x x x x
Base plate Mk1(+) x x
and
Retainer, Mk1 (+) x x
Or
Base plate Mk1* (#) x and all others
and
Retainer, Mk1*(#) and all others
Platform, Mk1 x x x
Or
Platform Mk2 x x
Or
Platform, Mk3 x
Spring, platform, Mk1 x x x x
Or
Spring, platform, Mk2 x x x x
+ or # = Can only be used as a pair
1) = Magazine of new manufacture
2) = Possible configuration by unit level conversion
The authority for these conversions states that conversion from Mk1* to Mk1** will only be undertaken as and when stocks of the Mk1 bottom plates and retainers are used up. When Mk1* bottom plates and retainers are issued as spare parts, they should be fitted to the magazines in accordance with drawing DD(E) 2254-IP. A copy of this drawing is included as Fig ….. Mk2 magazines should be regarded as factory manufactured Mk1* magazines as opposed to modified. On the introduction of the Mk1** and the Mk2* magazines, the Mk1, 1* and 2 are obsolescent. The Mk3 magazine was introduced under LoC C-738 in November 1943 to Enfield drawing DD(E) 3417. It differs from the old Mk2* type in that the auxiliary spring is spot-welded in during production and therefore forms an integral part of the case. This has been introduced in order to simplify production and the auxiliary spring is not a replaceable part as in other magazines. All other components are of the latest pattern.
I have put this here and tried to tabulate it as taken from the manuscript. But I cannot get it to tabulate when it comes up here - so it's still confusing. And I can't be bothered to write it all up again.
As a matter of (little ?) interest, the manuscript for just the magazines listed below covers 17 size 10 font size pages
The MAGAZINE, BREN .303” MG, No1 all marks,
The MAGAZINE, 7.62mm MG X3, L3 and L4 series
and
The MAGAZINE, 100 round, Bren MG, Mk 1 & 2
And of things magazine generally… …
(For detail of the .303” magazine loading tools, see ‘The CES’
One of the most difficult items of gun related equipment to manufacture is without doubt, the magazine. The magazine has been described as somewhat similar to a fire extinguisher. It must work instantly, the first time the trigger is pulled. There is no chance to try it out … … There’s a saying in the Army; ‘…if you do and it doesn’t, you’re done’! Quite what the problems were while designing the ‘new’ .303” magazine for the Bren were, can be imagined especially as it originated from a rimless 7.92mm format type. But let’s talk first about one of the design features above all others, the magazine spring.
Then follows another 16 pages of pure technical crap....... with the next 2 pages discussing the magazine spring. And afterwards, each part getting the same treatment!
Is there any way of easily identifying Bren mags with the auxiliary spring that were originally MK1 mags without the auxiliary spring? I assume that many MK1 mags were up-graded to include an auxiliary spring although I'm not sure that I have ever seen it stated that this was the case.