Early Marine Corps marksmanship training

My father was in the Marine Corps and was issued a 1903 Springfield in basic training in 1941. Sadly I paid very little attention to him when he talked about it. Here are the few things I can remember him saying ...
1. When he was issued his rifle it was full of cosmoline. His first duty was to clean the rifle.
2. Before they were allowed to shoot the rifle they spent several days "snapping in" (dry firing).
3. The rifle range was somewhere else from where most of their basic training took place in San Diego, California. They lived in tents at the range.
4. If they missed the target entirely the target scorer who was in a trench beneath the target would wave something called "Maggie's drawers".
5. He could recite his service serial number and the serial number of his rifle from memory. Of course the rifle number is lost to time.

That's all that I remember him saying. He related much more but I had no interest at the time.

Does this jive with what any of you know to be facts? Can you provide me with a link to anything written about marksmanship training during this time?

That is neat about the rifle being issued still in cosmoline. I knew the Marines had been putting 1903's into long term storage following WWI and the last of those rifles were pulled from storage and put into service about this time. So that is neat to hear that as that is the first account I've heard of that. The rifle had to be a Marine rebuild as the Marines didn't start to get any new 1903's until 1942, which came from the Navy.

I believe the rifle range for WWII era San Diego Recruits was at Camp Matthews. I know it was named Camp Matthews in WWII and I think before it was offically named Matthews it was Rifle Range La Jolla or something like that. But it was also in San Diego. The Marines even today travel to Pendleton to shoot on the range. There are no ranges at the Recruit Depot.

The snapping in sounds correct. We did the same. Maggie's Drawers was just a term used for the red flag waived when you miss the target. What happens usually is when you shoot, the guy in the butts pulls the targets and marks your shot. If you miss, he puts the target up and waives the flag showing you missed it.

We can get your dad's service number most likely if you post his full name with middle initial. As long as it's not a really common name. You can pull your dad's service records too and it might possibly have his rifle serial number from boot camp. It's hit an miss this late in the SRB's. It's just whether or not his 782 page is in his record book. A lot seem to be missing.

I don't know if this has what you are looking for or not, but a good website for WWII Marines training.

http://www.ww2gyrene.org/boot_camp_2.htm

cplstevennorton... Thank for your reply and the link. I followed the link you suggested and found interesting stuff to read. Among them this glossary of Marine terms, several of which I heard him use.

World War II Gyrene Glossary

I have his discharge and service number. Is there a way to get his records online or is it by requesting through National Archives?

His name was George T. Downs, serial no. 318830, enlisted August 7, 1941.

Thanks again for your assistance.

Alan

Was he Supply over in the Pacific? It looks he spent most of his time in Supply and he rose from a private in 1941 to a Sergeant Major in 1945. Which might be the fastest I've ever seen a Marine reach Sergeant Major. :) He is listed with a MOS of 584 at the end of the war.

You can request a free copy of his records, but to be honest the free copy usually sucks. They do a horrible job usually. They miss pages, or you can't read them. It is exactly what you would expect of a govt employee and being free. I pay a private researcher to pull them, which she usually charges $40 to $50, but you will get them copied right and she doesn't make mistakes. Usually the record books are 30 to 50 pages. I can give you her contact info if you would like. Or I can find the link for you to request a free copy if you choose that route too.

I wish I could have interviewed your father. He was on the front lines of the supply system for the 1st Amphibious Corps and it looks like later the 5th Amphibious Corps. He would have had a lot of first hand knowledge on the shipments coming over. And the supply Marines, especially that early in the War are extremely rare.

Just a weird question, did he ever mention anything on sniper rifles?

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Originally Posted by cplstevennorton

Was he Supply over in the Pacific? It looks he spent most of his time in Supply and he rose from a private in 1941 to a Sergeant Major in 1945. Which might be the fastest I've ever seen a Marine reach Sergeant Major. :) He is listed with a MOS of 584 at the end of the war.

You can request a free copy of his records, but to be honest the free copy usually sucks. They do a horrible job usually. They miss pages, or you can't read them. It is exactly what you would expect of a govt employee and being free. I pay a private researcher to pull them, which she usually charges $40 to $50, but you will get them copied right and she doesn't make mistakes. Usually the record books are 30 to 50 pages. I can give you her contact info if you would like. Or I can find the link for you to request a free copy if you choose that route too.

I wish I could have interviewed your father. He was on the front lines of the supply system for the 1st Amphibious Corps and it looks like later the 5th Amphibious Corps. He would have had a lot of first hand knowledge on the shipments coming over. And the supply Marines, especially that early in the War are extremely rare.

Just a weird question, did he ever mention anything on sniper rifles?

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Originally Posted by cplstevennorton

Was he Supply over in the Pacific? It looks he spent most of his time in Supply and he rose from a private in 1941 to a Sergeant Major in 1945. Which might be the fastest I've ever seen a Marine reach Sergeant Major. He is listed with a MOS of 584 at the end of the war.

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Wow. How did you know this? What is a MOS 584? You know much more than I do about his Marine Corps service. Yes he was in supply. Here's what I know about his service. He first went to New Caledonia in the south Pacific. I think they were sent there to prepare for a Japanese invasion which never came. Then he was stationed in Hawaii the rest of the war. Never saw combat. After his death my mother told me he was the youngest sergeant major in the Marine Corps during the war. He told me he had two things going for him... He was smart and he could type. I believe he got promotions because certain jobs required a person with a certain rank. So he was promoted to fit the job.

I would very much like the researcher's contact info. And the free route too.


No, he never mentioned a sniper rifle. Besides his basic training Springfield he only mentioned one other weapon. A Reising submachine gun which he said was terrible. I don't know when he was issued this weapon.

Attached is his picture taken probably in early 1942 before he went overseas. Note the old-fashioned uniform.

Thank you again for the information you provided. It is GREATLY appreciated.

I know this is off topic from the forum's 1903 Springfield subject. I do have a nice 03-A3 I recently bought. I'll start another thread on it later.

Don't forget the range on San Clemente Island. I last saw the remains in 1984 and it dated back to WW2 and Korea I think...what a desolate place... Located offshore from Pendleton...

I have an account with Ancestry, and they have the Marine rosters for WWII on there. So you can see usually about every 3 months where the Marine was and what he was doing.

I forget what that MOS is. I used to have a handy cheat sheet on my computer when I was more into collecting uniforms. But don't have it anymore. I will ask my buddy tomorrow and get that info for you.

Yeah the Reisings were everywhere, the Marines had a ton of them. In fact they had almost more Reisings than they did 1903's.

But I will get you the contact info for the researcher and the free location tomorrow when I have a little more time.

Way back before WWII the Marines qualified with the 1903 rifles. They fired from different positions at the 300 to 600 yard ranges. Sitting, kneeling, standing and prone. They had rapid fire from kneeling and prone positions. They fired 70 rounds to score a maximum of 350 points. 240 or better made you a marksman, a score of 290 or better made you a sharpshooter and a score of 306 to 350 made you a expert. A score below 240 meant you failed and they called that "Unqualified" or UNQ. You had to retake it. They spend a week practicing dry firing and live firing before the qualification day on Friday.

They actually got extra bonus pay for shooting well way back then. A expert got $5 extra pay and a Sharpshooter got a extra $3 a month. That was a big deal back before WWII. The Marines still treat marksmanship like a cult and individuals and units all competed to be the best of course.

Later when the Marines adopted the M1 Garand, the course changed somewhat to accomodate the 8 round magazine capacity. It changed again with the M14 and the ten round magazines and the course stayed the same with the M16's. The M14's and M16's used 200 yards, 300 yards and 500 yard shooting lines. At this time they changed to 50 rounds fired total and a 250 point score maximum.

I think everyone in boot camp at San Diego went to Camp Matthews gun range inside Camp Pendleton for qualification training, etc. When they switched to M14's and M16's the old range was closed. The shooting lines at the different yard ranges changed. But the newer range complex is called Edson Range inside Camp Pendleton. They actually had some other gun ranges that sometimes got used off and on too.


ref The U. S. Rifle, cal. .30, M1903A3

Liked the link, but you think the webmaster could change the "M1903A3" in the title to a M1903??? :D

My mistake, my memory was bad. Camp Mathews was actually located in San Diego in LaJolla. They closed it around 1964 when they moved everything to Camp Pendleton instead. it is now all developed with businesses, The University of California has a campus there now too. When I was in the USMC, I sort of was a big Marine history buff at the time. But as I get older I need to look up things more.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Don't forget the range on San Clemente Island. I last saw the remains in 1984 and it dated back to WW2 and Korea I think...what a desolate place... Located offshore from Pendleton...

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San Clemente is still very much in use, trained there a few times in the 90's and early 2000's

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Originally Posted by brent65

San Clemente is still very much in use

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We went out there to do an amphib op with Amtracks back in '84...and landed in a dense fogbank that would stop you cold. I believe they still use it. Just desolate.

I qualified as a Sharpshooter using a M14 in boot camp. Later somehow I got cheated out of being a Expert at the alternate rifle range near San Mateo, I shot a 247 using a M16 but some mix up had me as a Sharpshooter again. I even had witnesses but after the card was signed by the range officer it is too bad. After that I qualified as a Expert then on using the M16's. Later I qualified as a Expert using the M1911 pistols too.

I do not remember the USMC doing anything with San Clemente island when I was there. We could have though, I remember us getting inside Amtracks, going out to sea and boarding an amphibious ship and then sailing around for a couple of days and then making a landing somewhere (I thought Camp Pendleton but maybe not) then after some running around doing stuff, getting back on the Amtracks and getting on board the ship again. Then heading back to Camp Pendleton where we made the final landing and back to base. We also got on helicopters and went to the helicopter carrier ship and did some landings from it too. it might have been the USS Tripoli at the time. But when I was at Camp Pendleton, we used to ride around in the Amtracks a lot. At that time they used the Amtracks like jeeps, They took the Amtracks everywhere, including all those places jeeps could not go. We used to stage a lot of amphibious training operations there. I went through boot camp at San Diego, Edson range for rifle qualification, then off to ITR at San Onofre at Camp Pendleton, then to TwentyNinePalms for advanced training and then back to San Mateo inside Camp Pendleton. From there I wound up going all over, I went to Quantico in Virginia, then overseas to Okinawa where I went on a float of course. Then it was back to Camp Lejeune in North Carolina.

Camp Elliott, part of which is now incorporated into Miramar MCAS, was used extensively for Marine recruit training and had ranges, so Elliott, Matthews, and Camp Pendleton were all used for weapons training and qualification. That the Marines were housed in tents doesn't help much as all the Marine Corps bases including MCRD San Diego, had tent encampments