No32 MK III Sniper Scope

Hello Gentlemen,

This is my first "proper" post so ease me in gently!

First, what a marvellous forum, I have spent the last week or so looking through old threads and learning a great deal, so thanks for that.

I also read the thread concerning the KOSB veteran being given the chance to handle a NO4 T again. Not ashamed to say that brought a lump to my throat, especially towards page 10! Not least being a "Scott" myself, and having family not a million miles from where he was brought up. My own grandfathers served in the Black Watch (Dispatch Rider), and the Scots Guards (4th Armoured, Churchill Tank)

Anyway, I digress...

I recently purchased a No32 MKIII scope, in bracket, and with lens covers, produced by Cooke Troughton & Simms. It seems in excellent condition overall, with moving turrets and clear lenses. It doesn't look to have ever really been messed around with, and seems to have just been taken off a rifle and stored.

I am slightly concerned, having read some of the threads here, and would like to make sure that everything is as it should be, especially the bracket. Because, and this will make me sound rather naive, until I joined the forum, I didn't actually comprehend just quite how in demand these things were, to the point that so much of the kit needed for a No4 T had been faked/reproduced.

So:

1) Is there a thread which details the differences between a "good" and a "bad" scope bracket?

2) Likewise with the leather scope covers. Any pointers telling right from wrong?

3) Value: I know an object is worth what somebody is willing to pay, and that the best place to search is the completed listings of the worlds favourite auction site. Having done the latter, and seeing a couple of packages similar to mine make £2000+ is that the sort of realistic ballpark for a set up such as I have described above?

Many thanks indeed for any advice.

Kind regards,

Chris

Chris,
If you can post us a couple of photo's of your scope & bracket you will be snowed under with advice. A picture is worth a thousand words, as they say.

Concerning the price, I would say the 2k mark is about right for current UK retail price for a decent Mk3 scope & an original bracket.

Many thanks indeed Roger,

I am charging the camera as I type! Is there any specific area(s) you need to see in order to pass judgement?

£2000 is quite a lot to have sitting around without a rifle to put it on. Do original scope-less rifle materialise here in the UK with any regularity?

The bracket has a number on it, which I gather from reading the forum is probably the number of the original rifle it was paired to? Is it possible to trace the original rifle do you think? Or is there more chance of winning the Euromillions tonight?

Apologies for the questions, and thanks for your advice so far.

Kind regards,

Chris

Hello Chris,
A few general views of the bracket & if you can get some closer up of any markings so that they are discernible, that should do it.

Unfortunately there is very little prospect of being able to turn up the rifle of which the serial number is marked on your bracket - it's not an impossibility, but not far off it! Having said that we have had people with 4T's find their original matching scope, but even this is a great rarity. There is a scope to rifle 'matchmaking' thread on this site.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrcjgscott

The bracket has a number on it, which I gather from reading the forum is probably the number of the original rifle it was paired to? Is it possible to trace the original rifle do you think? Or is there more chance of winning the Euromillions tonight?

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Two lucky dips will probably get you more chance of winning than finding the rifle, but let us know the rifle number and the scope number, or put this info in the matchmaking forum, scopes looking for rifles...... you never know.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrcjgscott

£2000 is quite a lot to have sitting around without a rifle to put it on. Do original scope-less rifle materialise here in the UK with any regularity?

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Yes, scope less rifles do materialise, bought one last year in an auction.

Please post photos, especially those of ANY markings on the scope and bracket. Many scope brackets (mounts) had the serial number of the rifle they were assigned to marked on the left side of the bracket. Telling us the scope serial number e.g. 21345 and rifle number on the bracket e.g. X34567 would be very useful. (Made up serial numbers cited above) A number of forum members do a lot of research on these rifles and track rifles, scopes etc. About 26,000 No.4 rifles were converted to sniper equipment. The survivors are now scattered around the World. I have been able to locate 3 rifles matching No. 32 scopes that I have and 1 scope set for another of my No.4 (T) rifles. Locating is one challenge. Obtaining and reuniting components is another huge challenge. Few owners are willing to sell although some are willing to trade for other examples
of the same scope or rifle. Not only do they pop up in other countries, but also on other continents! Different gun laws, export/import laws, Customs charges etc. A local friend in Canada just obtained a rifle out of the USA that matches his scope. I am awaiting money to send a No.4 (T) BSA rifle I bought out of Pennsylvania USA to the owner of the scope/bracket/tin in Nebraska, USA. This rifle is presently in British Columbia, Canada.

If looking for a scopeless rifle be aware that although the mounts will go onto another rifle with the correct pads and look nice, they are not tuned (collimated) to that rifle.

Rifles without a "T" on the left side usually were not completely converted to sniper equipment. About 3,000 No.4 rifles were partially converted. As such a scope could be popped on but the end result would still not be a "real" No.4 (T) sniper rifle. "Caveat emptor" (Buyer beware).

Lots of excellent resource people are on this forum and happy to help.

Hello Gents,

Many thanks for all your help and advice.

Attached are some images as requested. Hopefully they will answer all of your questions. My apologies for the low quality, I had to take them inside due to the piddling rain!

Fingers crossed for a favourable outcome!!

Kind regards,

Chris

For what it's worth.

Rifle H38302 lives with me down in Australia. The butt indicates that it should have scope number 20211. My rifle is currently fitted with scope number 347, a Mk2/1

Your scope number 19728 needs rifle H34996.

The scopes are only 482 serial numbers apart. The rifles are 3306 numbers apart. That indicates that about 1 in 6 rifles were selected to be converted.

FWIW everything looks perfectly genuine to me. The bracket is a Rose Brothers example. Interestingly, I also have one with the cradle clamps marked '6' & '7'.
The Irish government not long ago released a small quantity of No32 Mk3's, complete with their brackets & in their tins. The vast majority were CT&S like yours, although I had a couple that were THCo's. Never saw a Kershaw or an REL.

With a H prefix your rifle would have been a 1944 BSA Shirley.

If you are a shooter I'd hang on to the scope & bracket until a nice scopeless 4T happens along. If you keep your eyes & ears open, with a little patience you'll find one. It is true that H&H took a lot of trouble in collimating the scope bracket to rifle bore on a case by case basis, but even if a little playing with is required, it can be done.

That is wonderful new Roger, thank you!

There was a palpable sigh of relief after I had read it through for a second time!

I shot a lot in my youth, but haven't really been in a position to again properly for many years, what with various moves and postings. I would like to take it up again though.

I will have to carefully consider if having such a beautiful thing tucked away is really fair on it or me, especially if the little lady finds out what it is worth!!

At the moment I collect edged weapons, and I wonder if I would be better served passing it on to somebody who will have more use of it, so that I can invest the money elsewhere.

Its quite a hard to decide, given the value and rarity, I may never have another chance to own one.

Lots to think about.

My sincere gratitude for everybody's help, and the warm welcome. I think I may stick around here, it's a good place to be!

Kind regards,

Chris

Sage advice from one who has sold what should have been kept - do not sell it keep it for the day when a scopeless T comes along because as sure as eggs you will sell the item and lo and behold a rifle will present itself and your done no scope or bracket.
I have sold things that had I kept'em then life would not have some regrets like my Beretta U/O 56E Skeet gun sold to buy an XR-75 scrambler Wrong, my 1976 green Z- 900 for my Z1R semi wrong then sold it for a 900 Honda F2B Totally Wrong.
My wife perseveres with my collecting but I am very lucky as she is a passionate shooter and enjoys my 303's immensely although she has claimed my 5MD No 1 MkIII as her's (no way).
Its your call but the T's no matter what type scopeless caseless what ever are going up in price and you have there probably the most expensive piece of the puzzle..................................
Anyway I am kicking back after a birthday party with my best mate with a certain Mr Gentleman Jack Daniels surfing milsurps have a top evening people:cheers::cheers:

Thanks Cinders,

I have similar regrets myself.

My main thinking is that I am not really geared up for shooting at the moment, so tucking it away for when I am seems a bit of a waste.

Having said that, I could invest the proceeds into my edged weapons, and have something I can make use of.

Still thinking hard!

Thanks for the advice, and enjoy Mr Daniels!

Sitting in my secure closet is a like new No. 4 T #H35018. This specimen is not 'T' stamped although it has all the other H&H conversion markings. There is no telescope number at the wrist so this one never made it to finishing school.

Darn, that is close, sounds like a handsome rifle though.

All these great stories of possible reunites are not helping me decide what to do! Seeing it back on the original rifle would be amazing, but I think to see it being used and appreciated would be pretty good also.

People seem quite keen on the scope, which is good. I guess it won't have any trouble finding a new home should I decide to part with it.

Thanks all,

Chris

One last question:

Does my scope date from late 1944 or 1945, or is it impossible to know for sure?

Kind regards,

Chris

There are many No.4Mk.1T rifles, mostly '44 dated as produced by BSA/H&H that are complete and matching but lacking the finish "T" on the left side of the body. The only explanation for this that I've come up with is that they were producing them as fast as they could for obvious reasons. H&H produced the largest amount in 1944. There was a war on!

Your scope looks right as rain and very nice to boot Chris. Get on the hunt for a rifle, make sure the bracket fits and collimates properly and you'll be good to go.

---------- Post added at 01:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:38 PM ----------

PS, Contact DS Solutions and grab one of the booklets they sell on the No.32 and L1A1 scope. It has all the pertinent information you're looking for.

Thank you Brian,

I have found the booklet you mention, appreciate the tip!

Kind regards,

Chris

Chris - Please verify the rifle serial number stamped into the side of the bracket. It looks to me like H34906 whereas someone else reads it as H34996.

996 to my eyes!

Chris, your No32 scope is worth keeping even if you don't end up putting it back on a rifle as it's an interesting example of good design, precision engineering and optics all rolled into a single item.

hard to define the second numeral appears to be a 9

On a Macbook Pro Retina screen the serial looks like ending -996 to me.

Thanks for the messages Gents!

As to the bracket number, outside, in daylight and under a lens, it reads:

H34996

Hope that helps,

Chris