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Figured I'd start a different thread instead of Highjacking Gils thread.
I received this picture from a good source of mine in Canada.
It's a C3A1 rifle with a Cadex scope base, Cadex rings/mount and a S+B 3-12 scope. My source told me the scope and rings originally came in on the C14 Timberwolf. They have since upgraded the scope on the C14 to a 5-25 scope and now use it on the C3A1's.
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z...psnpt6eewh.jpg
so they have drilled and tapped the action for the Cadex picatinney base? the S&B scope is a 3-12 double turn scope any idea on the reticule? and still using the Parker Hale magazines?
The cadex base is specific to the c3a1 action which is already drilled and tapped.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossin
I have to say, I learn more and more about this conversion every day, so does a former PH engineer. So much happened during that period it even tests their memory banks:lol:
P4l reticle is what I was told.
I actually have a base on my website.
http://www.rwsgunsmithing.com/catalo...icatinny-rail/
Interesting, looks to be sitting awfully high and on a degreed/ canted base. Hard to zero would think. The source indicate why there is a current contract for MST-100 / Unertl 10x C3 scopes?
I was unaware of any new contracts for the mst-100 scopes.
I was told the C3A1's were used for training or to hold them over till the C14 contract has been filled.
If you here of any genuine C3A1's coming up for sale could you let me know from your end please!;)
The S&B 3-12 x 50 PMII/LP Gen. II with the Mildot reticule has also replaced the 10x Unertl in USMC service.
By canted you mean angled down? This commonly referred to as built in MOA/Mil and is designed to extend the available elevation range of the optic by effectively zeroing lower in the scopes adjustment range. This is very common practice over the last 10-15 yrs and zeroing is no harder than that of a 0 degree MOA base.Quote:
Originally Posted by wbs2111
The setup with the Cadex rail and mount is high. Workable with the Cheek rest.
3-12 Cadex Rail and Mount
Attachment 74732
5-25 Cadex Rail and Mount
Attachment 74733
3-12 Cadex Rail and TPS low or S. Low(can't remember which...)
Attachment 74734
uhhmm there isn't any contract for MST100 / Unertl 10x scopes, the Unertl scopes on C3A1 rifles have ALL been replaced in service with S&B 3-12 PM2 scopes.Quote:
Originally Posted by wbs2111
Or at least so I was told 4-6 months ago, by someone in a position to know.
Have they scrapped the old scopes? or will they sell them off? I guess the Rifles will go to stores and then cut up? Anyone know about who's barrels they used when they were replaced?
The Unertls were/are being sent back to stores, disposition is currently unknown.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossin
Replacement barrels were manufactured by Rob MacLennan in Ontario.
A likely clue would be the difference in the elevation turret between the Canadian and USMC scopes, if USO was doing rebuilds/new issue to match the original scopes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Enfield
Did find a photo that does seem to support USO work:
Yes that was the rifle I just missed here in the UK which was sold back to someone in Canada.
The full story is under Classic Military Rifles whose owner I know. Lots of things changed on the rifle over a period as written on the advert including the stock. Still a nice rifle at a good price.
Canadian C3A1 Sniper Rifle
Well if anyone wants a Canadian style Unertl then they should call USO up. I bet if they got enough calls and depend they would do another run.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
"C3 marked USO scope turrets building"Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwsgunsmithing
US Optics just finished a "group buy" of 100 scopes (it sounds like they built 100 for the order and an "overrun" of up to 100 scopes), a member here ended up purchasing a large number of them, many (all?) of the ones he ordered will be C3 marked.
US Optics will put what ever serial number and markings on the scopes if you want them to (the default markings are USMC), which is the source of the markings in the above photo.
Objectives Photo by USOPTICS1 | Photobucket
IMG_5197.jpg Photo by USOPTICS1 | Photobucket
FYI, it took over a year from the date of order until shipment of product, I ordered mine in November, and received in 14months later.
US Optics MST100 sale $2975 - 1 - SnipersHide.com Forums - Scout
this is my scope made by Unertl I think the did the USMC use the same ammo spec? or is there a different ballistic chart?
In 1990/1991 (Gulf War 1) the Marines grabbed all the Canadian contract scopes at Unertl. They remained marked as C3 scopes, a few have been sold in the US by the CMP in the last few years.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossin
@10 years ago a friend of mine bought a C3 scope which came off a retirement trophy, unfortunately he sold it into the US...in retrospect I really should have bought it.
The Canadian scope is cammed to 800m, for Norma 168gr, the USMC (C3 marked) scope is cammed to 1000yards.
Just to clarify,there's an observable difference between the US Optics MST-100 & the Unertl in that the USO has what's commonly known,a man hole cover at the bottom of the erector assembly.
This was an improvement by USO to replace the Unertl erector leaf spring with a coil.Some Unertl's that went through USO for overhaul have had this modification done.
By the way,I have a friend who has two of the last production run USO's for sale.
My C3 scope is an early Unertl unit that I got probably 10-12 years ago. I've found it well suited to the lighter 7,62 bullets whilst the various commercial and military MST100s have been best mated with the 168-180gr projectiles.
The USO's run is news to me! A most educational thread.
Lets retort in order:
brent65: It is called forward cant and the min. of angle built in to the mount has to go somewhere. You loose it in scope adjustment. Add in height above bore and you can loose more adjustment. 30 min of angle built in an optical platform with a scope having only 60 min of adjustment now has 0 min in one direction. Optical center vs mechanical center may give you a few min or fractions there of but it moves all in the opposite direction. IE; you have 60 minutes of one direction adjustment. (based solely, in this case in a scope [any scope] having only 60 min total adjustment; half up half down from mechanical zero.)
Macca: The modification on the Unertl USMC 10x scopes was for the M40A3 1913 rail/ ring issue. The scopes did not have enough adjustment to zero because of the DD Ross optical platform and its forward cant. John/USO came up with the fix for the problem, the "man hole cover." (see above, if you want some true math can provide)
Lee Enfield: Thank you for posting the picture I sent to RWSgunsmithing showing the C3A1 turrets at USO. The run you speak of was a group buy on SnipersHide. They were all marked USMC SNIPER. The pic you posted was sent to me from USO with indication it was a new contract. As well and just out of curiosity, who would build an over run of 100 items on a 100 item order?
Buying 100 C3A1 marked scopes as a commercial or for profit endeavor would be like me buying a gross of Magnum condoms. Looks good on a shelf but I nor anyone I know would ever use one. Not many C3A1 clones being built, not many spares to do so nor complete M87s to buy, I have tried.
It took 2 years+ to get the USMC scopes sold and they are still backed up on delivery.
Hi wbs, are you a US Optics employee? If you're not, then no I didn't "post" your pictures, in fact I don't believe I posted any pictures.Quote:
Originally Posted by wbs2111
The photo links I posted are directly to (I believe) USO's photo bucket account. You can probably find them (like I did) thru a Google images search (and USO's Facebook page picture images).
I never intended to imply that USO built 100 C3 Marked MST100 scopes, they had an order thru "Lazy21" on "snipers hide" for 100 MST100 scopes (default marked as USMC) and I was told by a USO distributor that they (US Optics) were building a "piggybacked" over run of 100 scopes for direct sale.
Lazy21 offered custom markings and serial numbers and a number of orders were marked as c3 scopes.
Watching the on going USO/Lazy21 saga, I see that they are still struggling to complete scopes from the Lazy21 group buy, but I received mine (ordered direct thru distributor) back in January...
I'm sorry, but this is incorrect, the US optics modification of adding the coil spring DECREASED the elevation available in the scope.Quote:
Originally Posted by wbs2111
US Optics story is that it was done due to backlash issues caused by putting the scope onto the canted base, however USMC snipers have stated that un-modified Unertl scopes were/are still in service on M40A3 rifles and that the real reason that the mod was done is because coil springs are cheap and available and the flat Springs originally used by Unertl were difficult for USO to obtain with consistent spring pressure.
If anyone is interested I did just receive a extra cadex scope rings.
Just found these.[IMG]http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...psvrdmmhww.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...psbyvcqe1s.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...psq46i30fq.jpg[/IMG]
I think you might need to change your user name to Indiana Jones,great find!
cdnshooter,
These were fitted to the C3A1 rifles that were refurbished by Parker Hale under Canadian DOD contract W8466-7-EHB17/01 DATED 26-11-87.
All rifles were returned on the 31-12-1989 this bracket was fitted to the rifle 00238G under PH records entry 2132 in the archive ledgers
If it helps
I though you were all 50 all the time now?
Lee Enfield,
Say all after 50 Over! :madsmile:
can any one help with when the Parker Hale C3 and C3A1 were designed? as for the Imperial historic sniper competition but the regs say the transition 7.62 can be any rifle designed before 1961? so would either of the parker hale rifles be meet this stipulation.
Mossin,
Just looked through the PH records I have, and it alludes to stopping production in December 1984 of the C3(A1) rifle, and Bill Smallwood remembers them being around in the early 60's, as he worked on them but known as the C3.
500 x rifles came into PH to be reworked and replaced with an M87 action.
The Canadian upgrading contract had to be completed on all 500 rifles by December 31, 1989, it started on the November 26, 1987, where 500 x Unertl 10 x scopes were fitted as well as part of the upgrade, and the Khales scopes replaced. I hold all the rifle numbers that were worked on during that contract.
As I wrote in my story of PH on the site, on what was an alround proficient weapon system and clearly served the Canadian Forces well in the time they had it, so much so, it was upgraded to what was to rise from the ashes as the C3A1 sniper rifle on the 1st of January 1990.
Hope that helps. I could if you need it desperately try and sift through the archive on what I have to find an actual date, or better still search for your S/N, which could help date it!!
I've been waiting for someone to point out that cdnshooter's rings have the nightvision simrad attachment (ring cap) incorrectly attached to the rear ring, and pointing to the reverse.Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnshooter