Slim pickings lately on firearms but had a bit of good fortune of late filling some holes in the bayonet collection. Attached a few photos. A few No 7s (BOC Conetta Imperia)l, late Swiss Pioneer & a nice Brazilian 1907/34.
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Slim pickings lately on firearms but had a bit of good fortune of late filling some holes in the bayonet collection. Attached a few photos. A few No 7s (BOC Conetta Imperia)l, late Swiss Pioneer & a nice Brazilian 1907/34.
Very nice. Unfortunately bayonet collecting has fallen by the wayside for me recently, and I do need to do a fair bit of catching up (I just find it hard to justify buying a bayonet for the same cost as a new rifle). I have always liked the look of those Swiss Pioneer bayonets, they are just so well made and intimidating.
I was expecting to see some No7 bayonets HoH - as in the UK No7 type! Are the bayonets in pic 1 also described as No7's?
Its interesting how the same name can confuse people. I remember talking to a older gentleman who was confused as to when the M38s became so popular. The thing was he was thinking of the M38 Carcanos not the M38 Mosin Nagants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I seem to hit the bayonets in spurts. Can go for months without buying one and then get a whole bunch. Still stuck on just the one Brazilian this time around, ah, not true, I also purchased one of those brand new unissued Spanish bayonets on Ebay but it hasn't arrived yet. Might want to check them out. From Canada, he starts them at $49, I think I paide $51. Have their tags and everything. Make sure you check out the one he lists, some have scratches, but most are near mint.
Can't get one past you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Forgot which side of the pond I was on. Should have been M-7. Here is my No-7.
The Swiss Pioneer is a work of art and I am having a hard time not trying the saw out.
You have to try it out. What do you think will happen to it? Should cut through a 2x4 with no problems.
Here's a link to the Spanish bayonet I was talking about. I would pass on this particular one because the crests are messed up.
Spanish Naval Knife Bayonet Scabbard | eBay
That's right, they've always been called M7 bayonets, not No7's. I AM on this side of the pond.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Does any-one have a No7 bayonet with black grips and are they especially rare? My No7 has red grips as do all that seem to come up for sale.
Yes, the black are harder to find. They both appeared here many years ago and we didn't have the foresight to purchase one even though we knew they were different...
The black or brown grips were both the same part number so no difference to the UK Military except that for conformity, had to remain matched for colour according to the V-150 EMER of the period. Which also commented words to the effect that the darker colour (presumably black - but it was really a deep fleck brown) was to allow the manufacturer of the paxolin to utilise a material already in being. Paxolin was a tough mouldable and machinable insulating material used in the electrical industry. So don't be taken in by the dealers telling you that the black grips were special ones for the Gurkhas, Marines or other special forces. Just a stop gap variation in production
I think it was Forgotten Weapons (or Inrangetv) where they actually used the Pioneer bayonet. They tried on its own and being attached to the rifle. When it was attached to the rifle, it was going through wood like nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY
I still use similar material to what the No7 grips were made from except that the stuff that's seems to be available nowadays is called Tufnell. It is available in bonded paper or bonded linen/cloth form that I know of and possibly other forms. I have used this material for making items such as spot welding jigs which need need to be made of a non conductor type of material. I believe that some forms of this material may, in the past, have contained a certain amount of Asbestos?
Speeking of sawbacks ,they seem to travel in pairs. Group purchace with the Swiss one.
Nice, knowing your general reluctance to spend a fortune on bayonets, I'm thinking you must have gotten one heck of a deal on those two.
Ok deal. Budget was looking better due to lack of firearms oppertunities and bayonets are hard to find locally. Thought I had better strike while the iorn ws hot.
very nice assortment of US no7s , and excellent pioneer ,
i too was looking for a commonwealth no7 ..............i do have both the red and black but not in the same photo yet
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...96364747-1.jpg
You're missing the South African blade bayonet. Shouldn't be too hard to find and not expensive either.
And the cruciform No 4 Bayonet which can be found at any garage sale or flea market.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
I think the one on the right is a cruciform and yes, I did find one at a flea market, one of only 12 known to exist, so they are out there.
I was wondering if you would pick up on my jelous sarcasm. I remember your thread well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
A M39 was purchaced recently for south of $30.00. Yes the zeros & decimals are in the correct place. One problem someone saw it before I did.
Some of my bayonets, standard No.4s LB in there as well as the cruciform some MK I & II Savage ones the No.9 has just above the blade on front face a broad arrow and P above 18 on top it has a P inside a circle and 1949 they are very indistinct markings (Which maker is it !)and the last is the Non red gripped No.7 that Peter talked about.
Glory be! Finally the black handled #7 blade...
It's made by the ROF at Poole in 1949Quote:
the No.9 has just above the blade on front face a broad arrow and P above 18 on top it has a P inside a circle and 1949 they are very indistinct markings (Which maker is it !)
Could you elaborate on this, please?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
We blackened them to an inch below the crosspiece. The units always sent in about 50 of the worst at a time of course. The blades were left phosphated officially. If they requested that they be left polished, we could sort of half-accommodate them by leaving the blade 1" down bead blasted/silver/frosted and hang only the grip part in the phos tank. But they always seemed to polish them....... I mean....., as if the crunchies didn't have better things to do!!!!! That said, it's clear that pre L1A1 type, they came INTO service from the makers with polished blades. L1A1 and later production No5, grey phosphate blades
You must understand Peter, we were under direct orders...like the color party bayonets you had made with walnut handles, just an exercise in narcissism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
The RSM told me to do it BAR! And if he told you to do it, guess what you did..........
The picture of Cinder's cruciform No4 pigsticker shows what look likes "3 M" on the bottom row of markings; does any-one know what this means please? One of my cruciform pigstickers has S M for Singer Manufacturing and the other example I have I believe to have been refinished with different markings.
The 3M is just a badly hit SM or a chipped stamp. If you bead blasted and phosphated the Mk2 bayonets (not the Mk2*'s) you could see where the hardening and tempering worked its way from the blade onto the socket part. So stamping the socket, which some nations were prone to do, could cause havoc to your number/letter stamps
I have a Singer bayonet that was reworked and restamped in the 1950's. Singer stamp removed, new model numbers stamped on. There's a thread about it on here somewhere. Graham confirmed what it is, that it is legit. When he wrote his book there were 7 known to exist but by the time I found this one and asked him, he was aware of 12.Quote:
Originally Posted by porterkids
I think that I may have a reworked cruciform No4 Mk1 that Graham may not be aware of because I sourced it in Italy. I am sure that it is genuine but it appears to have been refinished and has different markings to the other example which I have which I believe to be completely original. I will try to remember to take some photos to post here over the weekend.
Here is the original thread with photos.
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=37884
Here are my 2 cruciform No4 MK1 bayonets which I have. The example which is blued all over I think/assume has been refinished and I had thought, from memory, that it had different markings. On inspection it appears to have retained the original markings. The other example, with a bright blade, I assume to be in it's original issue state.
Both bayonets came with/have just the standard No4 scabbard which I haven't bothered to photograph.
That is a couple of very nice swine stabbers.
Here are my No5 & No7 bayonets and both have the standard No5 scabbard which I haven't bothered to photograph. Sorry the pictures do not run in the order in which I intended them to or in which I up-loaded them but it should be fairly obvious which is which bayonet.
It may be a stupid question but does anyone know what the hole of what looks like around 1/4" diameter at the bottom of the cross guard of both bayonets is actually intended for? I will post a picture in a follow up post shortly. Thanks.
Here are the cross guards of my No5 & No7 bayonets which I mentioned in my last post in connection with the small hole at the bottom of around 1/4" diameter.
Nice bayonets Flying10uk
If anyone tells you that it was for locating a special SAS/Commando/SOE/Mossad/KGB/etc etc grip guard, don't believe them. It was either for lightness, simply ease of manufacture or a locator used during manufacture. But during a trip to the bead blasting, phos tank and paint booth/oven it was used to hang the bayonet from the zillions of wire loops
I did wonder if it was an "idea" to wire/tie the bayonet to the rifle???- just a bit of lateral thinking by me. Has anyone got a No5 or No7 bayonet without this extra hole, please?
Let me just clarify that for you...NO! I was infantry, I promise you we didn't wire them on. Come down off whatever cloud you're on...Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
Taught to never assume, but assuming anyway, Since they are knife blades and more likely to be used as a knife rather than a bayonet, from a design perspective it would seem likely they were lanyard holes to prevent loss.
Glad I started this ball rolling. Some very fine Pork Piercers in this thread!
Never heard that, never taught that, MOST unlikely......... as regardless of use, when not in use, it'd be retained in the sprung lined scabbard (Thread 43)
I look at the presence of these small holes in the cross guard of my No5 & No7 bayonets from an engineer's perspective not a soldier's. I assume that they must have been included during production for a reason and so I start looking for possible explanations/solution from an engineer's perspective. Aragorn243 has made a very good suggestion as a likely reason for the holes being there looking at it from an engineer's viewpoint, possibly more likely than mine of wiring the bayonets onto the rifle.
Peter, I'm not suggesting it's a practical use or one that was ever recommended but designers often have ideas that seem good to them but never work in the real world. Only reason I suggest the possibility is that I purchased many years ago a US combat knife with a leather lanyard in the holes from the Army PX. Quickly removed it as it just seemed stupid.
The interior structure of the small hole looks like a drilled or bored hole to me whereas the outer edges and big hole look like they're sheared/pressed out. As indeed is the elongated blade hole in the new L1A1 and No5 crosspiece I'm holding in my hand at the moment. I'd say, on that basis alone that the small hole is drilled approximately in the flat plate which is then located on a spigot on the tool. The press comes down and off pops a newly pressed crosspiece. Ready to be hand finished or linished to suit. If something is being pressed, it's got to be properly and firmly located
Having rather uneventful yard sales and flea markets the past few weeks. Did pick up an unissued Yugo bayonet for my 24/47 for $30 today. Guns have become almost non-existent as the new interpretations of FFL laws are scaring guys off. Also spotted a Longbranch socket blade bayonet that I thought about picking up as I wasn't even aware Longbranch made them but I'm not really a manufacture collector, just a type. If it's rare enough, I'll get it next weekend.
The Long Branch socket bayonets are not rare and are fairly common but Canadian Arsenal made examples, their successor, are. I have 3 examples the first of which I searched for but the other 2 I came across by chance. They are identified by an "A" within a "C" and are rare because it is said only around 5000 were made.
I have a L1A1 bayonet in my hand which also has the small hole in the cross guard. I know a little bit about how press tools are made because I am an experienced press tool maker although nowadays I am more of a general metalworker. The small hole could well be a "tooling location" hole because normally you need 2 location holes for a part to run through a press tool. The second location hole would, most likely be, be the large muzzle ring hole although you can also use "external" location holes. This would mean running a wider strip through the tool to accommodate the punches outside of the cross guard punch. The normal practice for making a tool to punch out the cross guard such as this would have been to designed it so that a plain strip of steel is fed through the press tool and the finished item drops out from below. The blank then may require flattening and deburring to complete the process.
On that basis alone (para 2, thread 50) following on from threads 40 and 50 and others, I'd say that you have effectively answered your own question (thread 37)!
I think that your suggestion of a tooling location hole is the best suggestion for the presence of this small hole that has been put forward so far, Peter. The problem with punching out a part like this with the large, in relation to outer blank, muzzle ring hole and the blade slot is that the finished part which drops out of the tool tends to be dished shaped/distorted. This dishing can be difficult to remove and thus obtain a flat part again. The cross guards which I have seen all appear to be very flat with no sign of dishing.
A way round this problem, in the 1940s, would have been to punch out just the outer profile of the cross guard and then to drill/bore the muzzle ring hole plus machine the blade slot. To do this it would not be necessary to have any holes actually in the cross guard in order to locate on a machining jig because it is perfectly normal/acceptable to locate on the outside of the blank using pins. Today a part like the cross guard would most likely be cut out on a C.N.C. laser cutting machine and would produce a nice flat part.
If only the outer profile was punched out and not the complete part then the small hole must have been included during production for something other than tooling location.
We KNOW that they're punched out because we can see the shear marks on the sides, inside the blade hole and around the interior of the large diameter hole! If they come off the press slightly bent or curved, then you just knock 'em straight before you clean them up a tad and use them ..............
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
In the eye of mass production this is the only way to do it, one strike of an automated machine, like a cookie cutter. While making a nice flat piece by punching, then drilling, and machining just adds two extra and expensive steps to a piece that guys like me are just going to literally bash against things. A little bend, a little wobble is of no matter to us troops in the field, does it poke holes in bad guys, stay on the end of the rifle, and not snap when windlassing barbed wire is pretty much all we care about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Best to build them fast and cheap, because we are going to break them regardless how nice they are finished.
I don't have an un-used cross guard to examine, Peter, because all of mine are attached to bayonets and so there is no way for me knowing if the blade hole is punched or not. What I do know is that a part such as this will come out of a press tool dished and it will not be easy to get it flat again. This is because the part will tend to spring back to it's dished shape a certain amount. My No5 and No7 bayonets, when examined appeared to have had the large muzzle ring holes drilled/bored. They could, of course, have been punched then drilled/bored out to the final size but both cross guards appear very flat which does make me question whether any of the holes have been punched.
I will examine my No5 & No7 bayonets again.
I can't speak for the British crossguards, but the parts for the USM9 bayonet are all stamped. And they are flat.
They're all stamped. Drilling a large muzzle ring would cause too much heat in the subject and wear in the drills.
This whole line of argument seems to be a case of someone that loves to argue.
I will do a close up photograph of the hole for the muzzle ring when I have had a look at it again. Jim I DO actually know what a punched hole and a drilled hole look like. I have been employed as a press tool maker my entire working life, a period of well over 30 years. Others are entitled to an opinion which may differ to your own and Peter's.
It's not really an opinion. Anyway, I hate people that argue for the sake of it. You can count on less activity from me in your posts. Have fun with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
OK, a new line of inquiry since this drilled vs stamped issue came up.
Obviously a lot of crossguards were not stamped, how were they made? Were they cast? Cutting and drilling just seems too much for these things. But I can't say I've ever seen a mold line on any of them. Polished out I imagine. Probably almost every bayonet made prior to WWII has thick heavy crossguards, some with fancy mounting rings like the Martini Henry, others just very plain but too thick to be pressed, I would think anyway.
I can't believe this discussion as devolved into an argument on whether particular holes were bored or punched, and reminds me of a saying about stupid leadership: "(He) doesn't know if his xxxhole is punched or bored"
You have no idea how much the irony of this situation delights me.:super:
This is my last missive before I lose the will to live. If you can punch out a 3" AND a 4.2" mortar base plate and the ribs, supports and fillets from a sheet of steel far thicker than a crosspiece.........guess what?
Here are some close up pictures of the cross guard of my No7 & No5 bayonets.
Here are the other 3 pictures which go with the last ones I posted.
I'm just guessing now, with an idea based on nothing more than my limited experience with military specs. F-10. Maybe - just maybe....., the spec stated that all sharp edges must be removed and the hole diameters must be clean and blemish free. You'd expect that. After all, we, at the sharp end had a go/no-go gauge to test fit fit and ovality. Additionally, the sharp edges would be removed otherwise the poor souls would be shredding their hands to ribbons on the sharp edges. JUST as your photo shows. Gauged hole and edges linished(?) clean albeit roughly!
My No 7 does not have those gouges UK
As Sentry stated not worried about how it looks as long as it stays put on the rifle and make them cheaply because they are going to break them, do they admonish you greatly Sentry if it does get busted!
Just my 5c worth
Certainly not, with the old C7 Nella bayonets on the bayonet training course, if you didn't break your bayonet you weren't fighting the target hard enough. They always have a milk crate full of spares for those days.Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
In fact, Peter will cringe here, we were never punished for breaking equipment, broken equipment was seen as the spirit of speed and aggression required to be an Infantry Soldier. Rip the cocking handle off a C6 clearing a hard extraction? (I did it) Enthusiastic slap on the back, and you got to keep the souvenir. Bring up the spare gun.
Modern weapons have things done to them that would make collectors cringe, mortaring a C7 rifle to clear a stoppage, kicking bolt handles open on glowing hot MG's, gas system parts separated with blunt instruments, the bolt extension on a C9 gas piston makes a dandy hammer. It's not that abuse to the point of destruction was the order of the day, but either the piece worked, or it was forced to work.
Mostly our peacetime and training equipment suffered the worst, and because it was trained on so often it got worn out, and usually required this sort of abuse upon failure. During my deployment we got all new gear, Inglis pistols out of the cosmo with the decal, C8A3's out of the box, and our rifles were recently rebuilt/upgraded C7A2 models, brought from Canada. Only the C9 LMG's were a bit tired, but they were upgraded a couple years later.
However losing a piece of weapons equipment was not taken lightly, that was considered willful neglect, you could lose a pouch or canteen here or there, but the world stopped turning if a C79 Elcan sight was even misplaced slightly.
I don't believe, if my posts are read carefully, that I've ever stated that I don't believe that the cross guards were ever punched out. I've questioned if they were or were not; there is a subtle difference between the two. Both my No5 & No7 bayonets do appear to have been drilled, reamed or bored out but they may or may not also have previously also been punched. While examining the bayonets for the pictures I did notice that they appeared to have been surface ground/linished which would account for the flatness more than I would expect to see if they had been punched out. Remember that more than one method of production may have been used during WW2 taking advantage of whatever equipment/plant was available to the contractor.
I probably have a much greater interest in the actual manufacture of military equipment than the average forum member.
Sentry - I think Peter had a story some time ago on the forum where there was an errant bolt or rifle or both but quite a story
I have this new/replacement blade of the British No5 style which I believe may/could fit some or all of the bayonets with this style of blade. The chap who I purchased it from told me that it came from the firm of Hopkinson Ltd when the company ceased trading and was used by them for reconditioning work for the U.K. and foreign customers. The tang looks too short, to me, for it to be suitable for a replacement blade for the L1A1 bayonet but perhaps others will confirm this, please.
L1A1. The pommel and cross piece are rivetted on later. They didn't refurbish for us but they did supply new. They also used these blades to make new No5 bayonets for Sterling. That's why the 'fake' Sterling bayonets have L1A1 steel grips. To be perfectly honest, pressed steel grips for our No5 bayonets would have made perfect sense in a production engineering world where commonality = cheapness. Alas, the L1 series blade part is totally different to the No5 type blade
Earlier this evening I was looking on a dealer's website concerning something else and totally by chance I happened to notice that they had a 1970s L1A1 bayonet by Hopkinson for sale. They described this as being very rare because of it's long fuller and because of it being "waisted" which presumably justified it's price tag of over £300.
Long, shorter fuller, waisted or straight X-pieces, hollow ground of straight ground made absolutely no difference to us whatsoever. All types were common in service and were described in the V-150 EMER as permissible agreed variations in order for (outside) contractors to make best use of their manufacturing facilities - or words something like that. That's why you see non ROF bayonets with these variations
There was only one sort of L1 type bayonet that did cause us some trouble when encountered that is rarer than the others.
For anyone who may like to take look at this "rare" L1A1 bayonet priced at £325 inc U.K. postage it is still currently available on J.C. militaria's website. I may have an example myself as I do have several L1A1 bayonets but I won't have paid more than about £65 for it if I do.
If you lost an L1 bayonet in service it'd cost you £3: 80p. Plus scabbard plus a bit more plus a couple of days restricted privileges
I wish the cruciform were that common, the only ones you saw at one time were the fakes, as most of the originals were apparently sent to Canada and then destroyed. A couple of years ago a lot became available and were rapidly snapped up once their authenticity was confirmed. As for the No7's there is also a red handled one in which the cloth is very apparent, not an official variation just lean production methods in the original production runs.
Here are some pictures of my black grip No7 bayonet which is a fairly new arrival. The pommel is marked M47A indicating BSA manufacture, presumably, the entire bayonet and not just the pommel.
One of the more entertaining machine operations i have ever seen is that for making STANAG / M-16 mags.
I don't have any pix because we were not allowed to take any, or even carry cameras inside the facility.
However:
Start with a big roll of the appropriate metal and punch some "starter" notches on both sides of the "tail"
Feed this into a set of guides and "toothed" rollers and hit the start switch.
The material is fed through a series of stamping stations that start with "blanking, ( basic outline forming) and move on from there. The trick is that the "blank" sides are NOT shorn (sheared?) away from the tractor-fed sheet but held by numerous tabs like sprues on an injection moulding.
Thus, synchronised by the tractor feed (VERY like your Daisy-Wheel printer, circa 1970's) the "panels" are subjected to various punching / stamping operations, like the forming of the guide-ribs, folding the front and rear edges, forming the feed lips and mag-latch feature, etc.
At the final station, the finished sides are punched clear of the well-perforated parent metal sheet and dropped into appropriate bins, ready to be inspected and then jigged up for the assembly welding operation, de-burring and surface coating.
Meanwhile, automatic spring 'winders", something like this one; CNC-620R FORMING MACHINES-3.mpg - YouTube are spitting out completed springs by the truck-load.